Being fair dinkum ...

[Woodsie]

Below is the side we trotted out in June 2017 ... a side that finished in 6th spot .. and had we not lost both Lussick and Lyon late .. were competing for the top 4 ....

My question is .. compared to our current squad ... how do you rate the two teams ... and given that comparison ... what would be a reasonable expectation for our finish ...

And to be clear, I have constantly stated I am a big fan of Dessie ... and an even bigger fan of Dessie and his coaching team .... this is not about Barrett and dessie .. but about the comparitive rosters ...

Sea Eagles:

1. Tom Trbojevic .... Tom
2. Matthew Wright ... Garrick
3. Dylan Walker ... Walker
4. Brian Kelly .. ... Suli
5. Akuila Uate ... ... Jorge
6. Blake Green ... ... Cust
7. Daly Cherry-Evans... ... DCE
8. Brenton Lawrence ... ... AFB
9. Apisai Koroisau... ... Api
10. Martin Taupau ... ... Marty
11. Frank Winterstein ... ... Siro
12. Lewis Brown .. ... Thommo
13. Jake Trbojevic .. ... Jake

14. Cameron Cullen .. ... Fainu
15. Lloyd Perrett ... ... Paseka
16. Darcy Lussick ... ... Boyle
17. Jarrad Kennedy ... Waddell

 

[HappilyManly]

8, 11, 12, 14, 17 are now much stronger

 

[Freagle]

I'd also suggest that many players who were there in 2017 - Jake, Tom, DCE, marty - have improved since then as well. NONE of them have gone backwards in any way. More control, more effort.

 

[Woodsie]

I'd also suggest that many players who were there in 2017 - Jake, Tom, DCE, marty - have improved since then as well. NONE of them have gone backwards in any way. More control, more effort.

You can add AFB and Siro to that list ... AFB was still developing into a starting prop, and Siro was just adjusting to being an 80 min forward .... it could also be argued that since shaking off a load of shoulder and leg injuries Jorge is born again ...

 

[maxta]

Firstly I agree with the full strength sides but want to point out, DCE and Turbo have missed half the 2019 season plus and we have only JUST got a more settled halves pairing since 2017....so where we sit on the table could be even better in reality.

I would not see Wright, Lewis, Cullen, Kennedy, Perrett getting a spot, with Winterstein and Lussick a battle for a bench....

Kelly would compete with options of 2019 and would have been interested to see if he improved under Des, as has some great moments equalled by shockers...but personally feel Suli is on the improve and could well be a great long term option, if he maintains a good head space - off the field.

Will also add Thompson has added toughness and experience in the middle which can't be underestimated, as it lifts the entire team.

The biggest inclusion is AFB, who has taken the NRL by storm and is in the top props in the world, which will only prove more valuable as the Turbo, DCE get more time on the field.

I think Uate added some great flare and finishing regardless of some key few errors (including the final vs Penrith - his last game), had a great season and Green offered more stability than we have had since 2017 at 5/8, though Cust could well reach and overtake his role in time if he continues to improve, as I see Cust a more dangerous runner of the ball which is a Massive plus in the modern game.

The style of footy in 2019 with a stronger side mentally, would strangle that side and run away with a comfortable win.

My best answer to this question is the Manly of 2019, I feel, would have snuck into the 4 and this side may well do that yet.

 

[The better Robbo]

Below is the side we trotted out in June 2017 ... a side that finished in 6th spot .. and had we not lost both Lussick and Lyon late .. were competing for the top 4 ....

My question is .. compared to our current squad ... how do you rate the two teams ... and given that comparison ... what would be a reasonable expectation for our finish ...

And to be clear, I have constantly stated I am a big fan of Dessie ... and an even bigger fan of Dessie and his coaching team .... this is not about Barrett and dessie .. but about the comparitive rosters ...

Sea Eagles:

1. Tom Trbojevic .... Tom
2. Matthew Wright ... Garrick
3. Dylan Walker ... Walker
4. Brian Kelly .. ... Suli
5. Akuila Uate ... ... Jorge
6. Blake Green ... ... Cust
7. Daly Cherry-Evans... ... DCE
8. Brenton Lawrence ... ... AFB
9. Apisai Koroisau... ... Api
10. Martin Taupau ... ... Marty
11. Frank Winterstein ... ... Siro
12. Lewis Brown .. ... Thommo
13. Jake Trbojevic .. ... Jake

14. Cameron Cullen .. ... Fainu
15. Lloyd Perrett ... ... Paseka
16. Darcy Lussick ... ... Boyle
17. Jarrad Kennedy ... Waddell

If you compared at the start of the season most would have said the previous side was stronger but having seen the likes of cust suli parker Garrick waddell etc stepping up, chez and AFB playing at a new level and jorge somewhat winding back the clock you'd have to say we are a much better looking side this year

 

[manly al]

That 2017 side mentioned there was a competitive group , maintaining consistency for the season was their general problem . Other factors such as team cohesion and full game commitment seem to be the big improvement factor as a comparison also and defensive consistency clearly offers a bit of a contrast too with the 2019 group . [ Titans game the exception ] A F B , Thommo and Garrick and the 2019 bench seem to offer much more as well . Thought that Jamie Lyon had moved on in 2016 . This current group has been going better on many levels so far , great if they can keep it up and particularly if they make the finals which seems more likely then not .

 

[jbb/james]

Woodsie, my recollection of the 2017 season was a purple patch of maybe 8 or 9 weeks. This was leading up to the same period. Defensively lussick, myles, jakey and api were pumped. But that ruggered style play has a huge mental and physical toll

Then after origin the big boys got back on track and our players never did. Manly fizzed and kept the carbination running all through 2018. No one could get the cork back in the bottled. Trent jumped from a ladder with the cork but still couldnt get it back. He blames the ladder which he borrowed from a mate because manly dont have fizz corking ladders or a fizz corking ladder strapper in case the fizz corking ladder fetcher goes down at training. Penrith do.

Anyway back to the point, Much like this year, a purple patch , injuries. I think the important question more so is how he handle ourselves from here. We really made surrender an art form. I dont think these guys are so meek.

Is it maturity in the players or new management. I dont know but currently i like it so
sssshhhhh.

 

[Woodsie]

Firstly I agree with the full strength sides but want to point out, DCE and Turbo have missed half the 2019 season plus and we have only JUST got a more settled halves pairing since 2017....so where we sit on the table could be even better in reality.

I would not see Wright, Lewis, Cullen, Kennedy, Perrett getting a spot, with Winterstein and Lussick a battle for a bench....

Kelly would compete with options of 2019 and would have been interested to see if he improved under Des, as has some great moments equalled by shockers...but personally feel Suli is on the improve and could well be a great long term option, if he maintains a good head space - off the field.

Will also add Thompson has added toughness and experience in the middle which can't be underestimated, as it lifts the entire team.

The biggest inclusion is AFB, who has taken the NRL by storm and is in the top props in the world, which will only prove more valuable as the Turbo, DCE get more time on the field.

I think Uate added some great flare and finishing regardless of some key few errors (including the final vs Penrith - his last game), had a great season and Green offered more stability than we have had since 2017 at 5/8, though Cust could well reach and overtake his role in time if he continues to improve, as I see Cust a more dangerous runner of the ball which is a Massive plus in the modern game.

The style of footy in 2019 with a stronger side mentally, would strangle that side and run away with a comfortable win.

My best answer to this question is the Manly of 2019, I feel, would have snuck into the 4 and this side may well do that yet.

All that is true ... but that was just the first June team I found from 2017 .... many of our top players also missed a lot of games that year ... the ins and outs of both squads would probably balance out ... for example I think both Lewis Brown and M. Wright both played almost every game in 2017 ... covering fullback, wing, centre, 2nd row, locke, and hooker ..... swings and round-a-bouts ...

Yes week to week a couple of changes to both squads would happen ... but on average I think the comparison is relevant ....

 

[Woodsie]

Woodsie, my recollection of the 2017 season was a purple patch of maybe 8 or 9 weeks. This was leading up to the same period. Defensively lussick, myles, jakey and api were pumped. But that ruggered style play has a huge mental and physical toll

Then after origin the big boys got back on track and our players never did. Manly fizzed and kept the carbination running all through 2018. No one could get the cork back in the bottled. Trent jumped from a ladder with the cork but still couldnt get it back. He blames the ladder which he borrowed from a mate because manly dont have fizz corking ladders or a fizz corking ladder strapper in case the fizz corking ladder fetcher goes down at training. Penrith do.

Anyway back to the point, Much like this year, a purple patch , injuries. I think the important question more so is how he handle ourselves from here. We really made surrender an art form. I dont think these guys are so meek.

Is it maturity in the players or new management. I dont know but currently i like it so
sssshhhhh.

I think losing Lussick was a far greater loss over the last 4/5 games in 2017 than any mythical ladder ..... and even still .. the fact is we finished 6th ..

but other than that I agree with your comments ... but again it is more the quality of the respective squads that are of interest to me ... and more maturity and natural progression are big factors for a lot of players ....

.. and not having to throw poor Louie Brown into the centres is a bonus ..

 

[Woodsie]

That 2017 side mentioned there was a competitive group , maintaining consistency for the season was their general problem . Other factors such as team cohesion and full game commitment seem to be the big improvement factor as a comparison also and defensive consistency clearly offers a bit of a contrast too with the 2019 group . [ Titans game the exception ] A F B , Thommo and Garrick and the 2019 bench seem to offer much more as well . Thought that Jamie Lyon had moved on in 2016 . This current group has been going better on many levels so far , great if they can keep it up and particularly if they make the finals which seems more likely then not .

Yep .. getiing into y dotage ... Jamie did finish in 2016 .. I stand corrected .. cheers

 

[manly al]

Yep .. getiing into y dotage ... Jamie did finish in 2016 .. I stand corrected .. cheers

You still seem as sharp and perceptive as ever Woodsie .

 

[jbb/james]

I think losing Lussick was a far greater loss over the last 4/5 games in 2017 than any mythical ladder ..... and even still .. the fact is we finished 6th ..

but other than that I agree with your comments ... but again it is more the quality of the respective squads that are of interest to me ... and more maturity and natural progression are big factors for a lot of players ....

.. and not having to throw poor Louie Brown into the centres is a bonus ..

All true, but what was our win loss record. The nrl cut off is pretty low.

 

[Snake]

You can’t compare rosters because there are too many variables that separate them.

The best analogy I can think of is Souths Sydney.

Under McGuire, the Bunnies were floundering and people were calling for a roster overhaul. Their halves needed to be moved on. Walker and Reynolds were B grade. The fans wanted blood.

The following year, Seibold took over the same roster and they went within a game of the GF. All of the sudden people looked at their roster and saw one of the strongest in the comp.

My point is, the reason why our roster looks better now is because Des is making the likes of Garrick and co. look like great players because he is getting the best out of them. If he coached the 2017 side, we’d be talking about how impressive Jarrad Kennedy is and what a new lease of life Manly has been for him.

I know u r saying it’s not about the coaching and you are trying to make a different point...but...

It kinda is about the coaches because they can make a decent roster look bad, or an average roster look really good. The reason Garrick looks like an upgrade is because Des has the team playing consistently well.

Look at Robert Jennings...how could Souths let the leading try scorer go? Oh hang on, he is actually a reserve grader who excelled with the Tigers, it was masked by the success of the club that made him appear to be an elite winger.

 

[Bearfax]

One of the major factors in the 2017 side besides having Green to ignite the backline was that unlike 2015-16 and 2018, Manly didn't suffer the extraordinary string of injuries. We've had the same problem at the beginning of this year. In 2017 we were far more fortunate and therefore able to keep most of the same team on the field.

The difference for me with Barrett and Hasler ( and I know Woodsie you are trying to avoid that argument) is that Hasler successfully worked the team, which was far shallower than the one listed for 2019, through without big losses and wins that were unexpected. Defensively the team are far more effective. Even though they have missed many of their stars this year defensively they are letting in 18.2 points compared to the 2017 side of 21.3.

Its important to remember Manly for much of this season have been without Tom T, Walker, DCE and again until Cust's rise, an effective 5/8. In that sense you cant compare because one side retained most of their top side the other until recently has not been able to.

 

[Woodsie]

You can’t compare rosters because there are too many variables that separate them.

The best analogy I can think of is Souths Sydney.

Under McGuire, the Bunnies were floundering and people were calling for a roster overhaul. Their halves needed to be moved on. Walker and Reynolds were B grade. The fans wanted blood.

The following year, Seibold took over the same roster and they went within a game of the GF. All of the sudden people looked at their roster and saw one of the strongest in the comp.

My point is, the reason why our roster looks better now is because Des is making the likes of Garrick and co. look like great players because he is getting the best out of them. If he coached the 2017 side, we’d be talking about how impressive Jarrad Kennedy is and what a new lease of life Manly has been for him.

But a coach is only one factor ... albiet a critical and important one ... the roster and injuries is another as are external influences such as broken doors ...

Nathan Brown was a dud 6 weeks ago ... Nathan Brown for President today .... Dessie a disaster at Bulldogs his last season there ... a born again genius at Manly .... Siebold a hero at Souths ... struggling to get Broncos firing or consistent this year ...

I realise that comparisons .. even week to week are scetchy ... Latrell Mitchell one week ... Latrine the next .... but overall roster comparisons still have some validity ... for example ... I am prepared to go out on a limb .. and say Tom is a better fullback than M. Wright or Elliott ... nearly every week ... and that AFB is a better prop than Perrett ....

 

[Woodsie]

All true, but what was our win loss record. The nrl cut off is pretty low.

2017 Ladder
Pos Team Pld W D L B PF PA PD Pts
1 Melbourne Storm (P) 24 20 0 4 2 633 336 +297 44
2 Sydney Roosters 24 17 0 7 2 500 428 +72 38
3 Brisbane Broncos 24 16 0 8 2 597 433 +164 36
4 Parramatta Eels 24 16 0 8 2 496 457 +39 36
5 Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks 24 15 0 9 2 476 407 +69 34
6 Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 24 14 0 10 2 552 512 +40 32
7 Penrith Panthers 24 13 0 11 2 504 459 +45 30
8 North Queensland Cowboys 24 13 0 11 2 467 443 +24 30
9 St. George Illawarra Dragons 24 12 0 12 2 533 450 +83 28
10 Canberra Raiders 24 11 0 13 2 558 497 +61 26
11 Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 24 10 0 14 2 360 455 −95 24
12 South Sydney Rabbitohs 24 9 0 15 2 464 564 −100 22
13 New Zealand Warriors 24 7 0 17 2 444 575 −131 18
14 Wests Tigers 24 7 0 17 2 413 571 −158 18
15 Gold Coast Titans 24 7 0 17 2 448 638 −190 18
16 Newcastle Knights 24 5 0 19 2 428 648 −220 14

 

[Woodsie]

One of the major factors in the 2017 side besides having Green to ignite the backline was that unlike 2015-16 and 2018, Manly didn't suffer the extraordinary string of injuries. We've had the same problem at the beginning of this year. In 2017 we were far more fortunate and therefore able to keep most of the same team on the field.

All relevant and contributing factors ...however it is noteworthy .. that this year our injury and distruptions have almost been exclusively to our backs ... and surprisingly all the "numpties" and newbies stood up ....

Our starting forward pack ... with the exception of a couple of games missed by AFB has almost been unchanged every week .... this I would suggest is very unusual, very advantageous ... and probably unique in the comp this year from any club ...

 

[Bearfax]

All relevant and contributing factors ...however it is noteworthy .. that this year our injury and distruptions have almost been exclusively to our backs ... and surprisingly all the "numpties" and newbies stood up ....

Our starting forward pack ... with the exception of a couple of games missed by AFB has almost been unchanged every week .... this I would suggest is very unusual, very advantageous ... and probably unique in the comp this year from any club ...

Point taken but as I mentioned 2017 was a good year for us regarding injuries and one has to ask regarding the backs why the 'numpties' have been so effective in just holding the line. The way Des is coaching I would suspect that had we had the full complement from the start of 2019, he may well have had us even higher than Manly are now. You well know that injuries determine a teams success during the year more than any other factor (other than poor coaching of course). I predicted a 10th to 8th finish this year if Manly could avoid heavy injuries.. Des has surprised me.

 

[Woodsie]

Point taken but as I mentioned 2017 was a good year for us regarding injuries and one has to ask regarding the backs why the 'numpties' have been so effective in just holding the line. The way Des is coaching I would suspect that had we had the full complement from the start of 2019, he may well have had us even higher than Manly are now. You well know that injuries determine a teams success during the year more than any other factor (other than poor coaching of course). I predicted a 10th to 8th finish this year if Manly could avoid heavy injuries.. Des has surprised me.

I tipped 6th to 8th .... and still confident ... and it may be more a case of us Silvertails underestimating the numpties ...