2013 Forwards

[ERNIE FOR NO7]

What I DO know, is Foran, G Stewart, DCE and others need guidance on how to manipulate their games, to remain at their peak.

When players are being paid $600k a season should they need alot of guidance.

Smith, Cronk & Slater are credited to be heavily involved in guiding the other players.

 

[Darren]

So true Ernie, how good are the 3 from the Storm!! Yes, take alot of cap but they just control that team and lead from the front. A Manly mate said to me recently that Ballin was better than Smith. Ballin is a quality hooker but those maroon glasses are still being shared around.

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Well thought out comments Jatz, but we differ in opinion on a few stand points mate. Remember, I'm just debating here, and I'm not trying to upset anyone, but here goes.

I consider this season a disappointment on various fronts. I know I've beaten the drum on many occasions, but we lost 2 out of three finals, we lost a WCC, and we lost to various very poor teams in the season proper that we shouldn't have.

People have answered that with, "we have had injury / suspension". Sure, we have, I can't argue that. BUT, what teams can inject the likes of Mauro, Whare, Lussick, Rose and co. in as depth?

I think we should have done better than fourth. I believe we should be current world champions. I believe we are better than winning 33% of our finals matches.

That leads me onto Foran and Daly Cherry-Evans. In my opinion, Daly has had a pretty poor season overall, and for him to threaten in any way that he'd head to The Bronco's if his contract wasn't upgraded outraged me as a fan. Less focus on that, and more on the field, and we may have beaten some of those lower placed teams.

The Foran contract debacle was terrible. Hearing Foran was having dinner with his mate in Belmore, hearing from his own mouth how close he was in following his prodige. It was inappropriate for my liking. I'm Manly to the core, and to hear players questioning their loyalty to us and the brand sucks. I know that's very old fashioned, and probably naive, but it detracted from my enjoyment as a fan and member of the team to be honest.

In regards to Foran vs. Reynolds. I personally believe a number of our players this year have been worked out. Foran, G Stewart, Watmough and Daly included in that group. One thing I believe Hasler had a knack of, was transitioning his sides, to stay ahead of the opposition. Both our halves lacked time with the ball, and looked devoid of options at times.

With that in mind, the acid test will be on Reynolds next season. His running game, and support style will be looked at, but I'm betting Des will work closely with him to refine his style, and change it enough to stay ahead of the game.

I guess that means, with all due respect, "at present", Reynolds is a better 5/8 than Foran in my opinion. That's as it stands right now.

That leads me to then consider Toovey's position. Is he quality enough to change his players style, or be innovative enough, to keep our All Star roster ahead of the rest? Look at The Swans coach. He was able to do so. For that reason, I say this year was a failure, because my honest opinion is that we have, and by some means, the best roster, and depth in the NRL, and that includes The Storm and Dogs, who basically picked us apart in those finals, as did the ESL team the WCC.

RE: Salary cap. Mate, a $600k increase is pretty substantial. If we are having to off-load players, considering what I believe to be a regression this year in form, what is next season going to look like?

That leads me to the forwards. We HAVE the players. Do we have the structure, and strategy to beat the opposition? Where does that come from?

What I DO know, is Foran, G Stewart, DCE and others need guidance on how to manipulate their games, to remain at their peak.

Dessie has his forwards working almost as halves. He has a decoy runner, playing OFF the forwards, but with two passes wide. It's unique. It's something other teams aren't used to.

Our forwards went through the motions this season, and in big games, were found out horribly. This meant opposition teams were all over Foran.

At this point in time, that doesn't seem to be the case with Reynolds.

That's all.

And to the others, this is a good healthy debate. Let's keep it along those lines, rather than regressing it into name calling and abuse.

Cheers guys.

Nice response Ryan, lol...........whoooa big fella. Now let that be a lesson to all you other posters out there.

I forgot that when you engage in debate with Ryan, it automatically becomes an epic & other things in life, like the weekend, mowing the lawn, shopping, visting friends, calling family, putting on dinner, having a nookie must get put on hold for the duration.

Will be back to you on this as soon as possible Ryan but not before I complete the last 2 on todays agenda. Not done by a long shot

 

[mickqld]

"Dessie has his forwards working almost as halves. He has a decoy runner, playing OFF the forwards, but with two passes wide. It's unique. It's something other teams aren't used to."

It's nothing but blatant ****ing cheating and as usual the league and the refs are too piss weak to deal with it. No different to Storm's grappling cheating that took the league 2 yrs to do something about. It's not credit to a coach or a team that flouts the rules, it's obstruction plain and simple every time they do it. It's one bunch of cheats vs the other bunch of cheats tomorrow nothing more and if the league continue to want to look like a laughing stock then they will continue to sit on their hands and let coaches and clubs run rough shod over them.

 

[Jatz Crackers]

I consider this season a disappointment on various fronts. I know I've beaten the drum on many occasions, but we lost 2 out of three finals, we lost a WCC, and we lost to various very poor teams in the season proper that we shouldn't have.

But we made it to the game prior to the grand final and beat all but 2 of the other 16 teams in the process. Why is it you dont mention the games we won ? Unless you demand we win the comp & nothing else is good enough that makes your points moot now doesnt it. We were 80 mins away from the big one.

People have answered that with, "we have had injury / suspension". Sure, we have, I can't argue that. BUT, what teams can inject the likes of Mauro, Whare, Lussick, Rose and co. in as depth?

Well that just doesnt stack up. Our bench lineup is hardly star studded now is it. Compare it to say, 14. Ryan Hinchcliffe 15. Kevin Proctor 16. Jaiman Lowe 17. Richie Fa'aoso. How about a comparison of them v us. The 1st bench totals 474 NRL games & 8 Rep jumpers versus our Manly bench of 218 NRL games & 0 Rep jumpers (if you discount the mickey mouse PM13 & All Stars for George & Vics Italian). There is no comparison there & your argument fails.

I think we should have done better than fourth. I believe we should be current world champions. I believe we are better than winning 33% of our finals matches.

That leads me onto Foran and Daly Cherry-Evans. In my opinion, Daly has had a pretty poor season overall, and for him to threaten in any way that he'd head to The Bronco's if his contract wasn't upgraded outraged me as a fan. Less focus on that, and more on the field, and we may have beaten some of those lower placed teams.

Really ? Your focus is on "no better then 4th" ? And lets isolate this to facts rather than Forans alleged contract negotiations which just muddy the waters rather than address the debate which is about the merits of the teams 2012 season, which ended in one place off the grand final.

The Foran contract debacle was terrible. Hearing Foran was having dinner with his mate in Belmore, hearing from his own mouth how close he was in following his prodige. It was inappropriate for my liking. I'm Manly to the core, and to hear players questioning their loyalty to us and the brand sucks. I know that's very old fashioned, and probably naive, but it detracted from my enjoyment as a fan and member of the team to be honest.

Nothing to do with this season or our next years team (especially forwards) which this thread is supposed to be about.

In regards to Foran vs. Reynolds. I personally believe a number of our players this year have been worked out. Foran, G Stewart, Watmough and Daly included in that group. One thing I believe Hasler had a knack of, was transitioning his sides, to stay ahead of the opposition. Both our halves lacked time with the ball, and looked devoid of options at times.

Reynold is not a better 5/8 than Foran because of where others sides may or not have worked out various Manly team mates games. Youve lost your point here.

With that in mind, the acid test will be on Reynolds next season. His running game, and support style will be looked at, but I'm betting Des will work closely with him to refine his style, and change it enough to stay ahead of the game.

I guess that means, with all due respect, "at present", Reynolds is a better 5/8 than Foran in my opinion. That's as it stands right now.

Why ? Just because Hasler might make Reynolds better next season doesnt mean he is a better player than Foran now. What on earth are you basing this contention on. For the life of me you have me lost on this one. One only has to look at the record of each player. Nuff said as they say. Gaurantee you Reynolds isnt worth $600k and in comparison Foran $250k. Laughable.

That leads me to then consider Toovey's position. Is he quality enough to change his players style, or be innovative enough, to keep our All Star roster ahead of the rest? Look at The Swans coach. He was able to do so. For that reason, I say this year was a failure, because my honest opinion is that we have, and by some means, the best roster, and depth in the NRL, and that includes The Storm and Dogs, who basically picked us apart in those finals, as did the ESL team the WCC.

This tells me youve based your assessment on Tooves purely on emotion and suspicion & nought on facts. The AFL reference pours acid on the remainder of any point your trying to make.

RE: Salary cap. Mate, a $600k increase is pretty substantial. If we are having to off-load players, considering what I believe to be a regression this year in form, what is next season going to look like?

OK so your worried. Im more focused about when it is that we rebuild (the word you didnt want to hear) or are we trying to maintain at the crest of our past wave. We cant stay at the top permanently and at some point we must regress to regroup and commence the rise once again. This is not Tooveys fault or Forans fault or even the collective management. Its a sporting vital statistic.

That leads me to the forwards. We HAVE the players. Do we have the structure, and strategy to beat the opposition? Where does that come from?

What I DO know, is Foran, G Stewart, DCE and others need guidance on how to manipulate their games, to remain at their peak.

Dessie has his forwards working almost as halves. He has a decoy runner, playing OFF the forwards, but with two passes wide. It's unique. It's something other teams aren't used to.

Our forwards went through the motions this season, and in big games, were found out horribly. This meant opposition teams were all over Foran.

I agree with you that we are the crossroads in terms of our forwards & I agree with you that Hasler has formulated a unique "forward playing halves" style at the dogs.

Lets take out of the debate, Foran & DCE as they are backs. We know what we want from our forwards and our game plan has worked over the last number of years built on the incredibly efficient defense of our pigs and their rather unspectactacular but sufficient attack.

To nullify that we need mobility in the forwards & a new structure in defense as the key changes. I look at it & wonder at haslers half playing forwards today but in terms of this debate, what are we meant to do ? Hang Toovey out to dry because he hasnt figured out a responsive game plan yet ?

In any case, we are in good hands. I do not share your concerns about the coach as yet because its way to early to make judgement.

In terms of our halves, Im sorry but I just cant come anywhere close to seeing your point, let alone agree with you. I think in the reverse & see that our 7 & 6 with their cool heads will be our biggest future assett.

For mine this off season is all about introducing new blood into the forwards & making small structural changes that lead us to quicker rucks and speedier halves play to the fringe forwards/backline.

Either that or "rebuild" lol. Why not look to how we can structure a rebuild Ryan and start a thread about that. I tried it some time ago but people didnt get it. Maybe you could write it up in a way that gets us all thinking ?

 

[mickqld]

IF the dogs win tomorrow then let's pass judgement on Canterbury and Hasler 2013
AFTER a WCC trip to England,
AFTER playing first 6 rounds away from home including going to NZ,
AFTER having several star players out for long periods of time with injury/suspension,
AFTER having 5 players picked for origin,
AFTER having constant media speculation for months on the constant loss of 7 star players to other clubs (which only 1 left)
AFTER having your now demi-god predecessors record shoved down your throat every 2nd day by media hacks.

 

[Napper]

IF the dogs win tomorrow then let's pass judgement on Canterbury and Hasler 2013
AFTER a WCC trip to England,
AFTER playing first 6 rounds away from home including going to NZ,
AFTER having several star players out for long periods of time with injury/suspension,
AFTER having 5 players picked for origin,
AFTER having constant media speculation for months on the constant loss of 7 star players to other clubs (which only 1 left)
AFTER having your now demi-god predecessors record shoved down your throat every 2nd day by media hacks.

I'd like this x10 if i could. Spot on!!

 

[globaleagle]

I thought it was 'on record' that tooves said to the boys - just go and enjoy the wcc. Because they didn't get to enjoy the gf win.

If this is the case, and ensuing reduction of game intensity, one could argue it's a bit rough to compare the result to his coaching ability.

Like playing a dead rubber and being told you don't have to train for it.

 

[Darren]

Jatz, you should be a pollie, you can make any bad situation seem much better. Roll on 2013. :s

 

[Sheikheagle]

IF the dogs win tomorrow then let's pass judgement on Canterbury and Hasler 2013
AFTER a WCC trip to England,
AFTER playing first 6 rounds away from home including going to NZ,
AFTER having several star players out for long periods of time with injury/suspension,
AFTER having 5 players picked for origin,
AFTER having constant media speculation for months on the constant loss of 7 star players to other clubs (which only 1 left)
AFTER having your now demi-god predecessors record shoved down your throat every 2nd day by media hacks.

Spot on Mick your best post of the year

 

[Frank]

Choc -----> left edge then he will fulfill your improvement needs.

Im told 6+ NYC kids will be re-signed to play NSW cup next year too!! Good news. Couple rough diamonds in that side but i believe our NYC side next year will have a few real stars. As you said, toovs will be having a few selection headaches over the next couple years.

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I don't believe that. We made offers for T Williams, and D Lussick, have lost both, as well as Whare, Oldfield, Harrison & others, and the caps going up.

I also assure people the club wouldn't have signed Fa'oso, Sao and Chee Kam if they anticipated losing players like Kite. These three players will be part of the top 25 paid players at the club.

Lastly, I repeat, the cap has gone up greatly.

I still say we paid way overs for our halves. What would have happened if The Dogs signed T Williams and K Foran to $600k - $650k contracts each? Would Reynolds be playing reggies next season?

Also, Reynolds will be lost to The Dogs next year because of guys like Inu, Perrett and Williams. He'll be demanding $600k plus as well, because frankly, he's a better 5/8 than Kieran (without rose coloured glasses on).

In my view, The Bulldogs hamstrung us with the battle over Foran. He's a $250k-325k player tops. Same goes for DCE. I would have rathered us re-sign 2-3 of the younger forwards we already had like Harrison, Lussick and maybe kept Whare, and bought up Drinkwater, on 100k per or something.

If we now lose Kite, we have paid a very hefty price for yeah, what I personally believe are extremely good halves.

My whole issue with that, is we then need little or lesser known players to step up (see Melbourne Storm). For that to occur, you need a marticulous coach. In my opinion, we are far from having one of those (on the Bellamy / Hasler levels).

I assimilate Toovey to the Steve Folkes, Brad Fittler, David Furner type of mould. Yeah, absolute club legends, and passionate about the brand, but a hell of a lot of their success depends on the quality and depth of their roster.

Fortunately for us, our roster quality at present is outstanding, BUT it is thinning. The true acid test of Geoff Toovey will be in the coming years.

I was told I was wrong about the long term viability of Lowey. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Reynolds is a better 5/8 than Foran. YOU ARE KIDDING!!!

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Cronk is the only half better than Kieran Foran. End of story.

---

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Yes he lost me early. As usual NFI.

 

[tookey]

"Dessie has his forwards working almost as halves. He has a decoy runner, playing OFF the forwards, but with two passes wide. It's unique. It's something other teams aren't used to."

It's nothing but blatant f**king cheating and as usual the league and the refs are too piss weak to deal with it. No different to Storm's grappling cheating that took the league 2 yrs to do something about. It's not credit to a coach or a team that flouts the rules, it's obstruction plain and simple every time they do it. It's one bunch of cheats vs the other bunch of cheats tomorrow nothing more and if the league continue to want to look like a laughing stock then they will continue to sit on their hands and let coaches and clubs run rough shod over them.

Spot on Mick

The dogs decoy runners impede the opposition defence from sliding acrross in defence as quickly giving barba and the other outside backs more room to move on the outside.

Jason Taylor picked this up months ago and said that it is clearly obstruction but the refs as usual have no idea what they are doing
Yes it is cheating and against the rules and they should be penalised every time.

 

[Ryan]

But Tooks, it's being allowed, so why not utilise it?
Also, this was probably my last attempt at a quality debate.

Comments like "Yes he lost me early. As usual NFI."
Comments like "I am dreading the interminable debate and navel gazing that you traditionally bring to the off season"

after I pleaded for it to remain civil, and on topic, just shows how far these forums have regressed from the "Alternate Eagles" days. Shame, because we used to have pages upon pages of quality healthy debate, predominantly remaining respectful, before mwse.com.au closed down.

 

[Napper]

But Tooks, it's being allowed, so why not utilise it?
Also, this was probably my last attempt at a quality debate.

Comments like "Yes he lost me early. As usual NFI."
Comments like "I am dreading the interminable debate and navel gazing that you traditionally bring to the off season"

after I pleaded for it to remain civil, and on topic, just shows how far these forums have regressed from the "Alternate Eagles" days. Shame, because we used to have pages upon pages of quality healthy debate, predominantly remaining respectful, before mwse.com.au closed down.

You have NFI mate

Really i understand where you are coming from with Reynolds blazing form this season but would you rather him at Manly than K Foz?

I think the thing that let Foran down this season was TRexs poor timing. Foran on many occassions hit the line with no option to dummy and go himself or cut out TRex. I think with Watmough on the left edge with his angled runs and quick play the ball would cause so many headaches.

Our left edge should be based around Foran as is with Matai and jorge outside with choc either side of Foran depending on play with big george or Richie faoso always inside hitting the line with Foz.

No half that plays at the line continually will be any good without runners/options. Reynolds had it every week. Foran didnt.

 

[Garts]

The 600k increase in the cap does not mean much. From what I hear most players have a clause that they receive a increase at the same % of any cap increase. With the upgrades in contracts it is easy to see why we are struggling to fit everyone in.

 

[mickqld]

I'd like to see us pick up Matt Groat and Russell Packer. Both are off contract.

 

[Dikefalos]

Lama tasi is also off contract & won't be resigned

 

[The Who]

Lama tasi is also off contract & won't be resigned

Well, he really wasted two years at Easts, didn't here. Obviously I'd like him back, but can we afford anyone new?

 

[bob dylan]

Lama tasi is also off contract & won't be resigned

There is a good reason for that.

 

[mickqld]

Lama tasi is also off contract & won't be resigned

There is a good reason for that.

There's also a good reason we let him go in the first place, same as JWH.Wouldn't be re-signing either of them.