Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

I'm not sure what the stats say in relation to tries scored on each side---i think last year was fairly even at one stage i recall but stats dont show lead up breaks before tries and metres gained one or two tackles prior to a try.

I would like to see a break down on metres gained and line breaks on either side of the field not including tries from kicks or regathered metres from kicks.

I would also look at how efficient our passing game is going each side in relation to amount of passes and time taken to spread balls over a given distance.

There are other issues in relation to go forward and Manly being the worst slow the play the ball offenders but i'll limit this analysis to attacking structures and ball playing.

PS
(Oh in person i'm a man of few words think Bennet but i admire Gould and M.Johns analysis)

 

[The Eagle]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Stay the way you are TC,you i like
Im half sure your actually Gus

 

[Dan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

passing to both sides with a flat bullet pass is not easy, even for professionals, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion

 

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Its not that hard Dan----back in my Teens i had the same issue and hated myself for being one side so over 3 months all my spare time i only allowed myself to pass on my weak side and i was fine passing either way.

This is not just about bullet passses like M.Pearce,J Mullen and others its about developing skills on that side, learning how to straighten up before point of release and many other intricate aspects that go un-noticed most times.

Ok off to write my SMH piece deadline fast approaching.

 

[bob dylan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Ok off to write my SMH piece deadline fast approaching.

Now thats amusing.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Ok off to write my SMH piece deadline fast approaching.

Do they pay you by the  word?
lol
On St George, they seem to be less conservative in attack so far this year, often spreading the ball in their own territory which they seldom did last year. Maybe an adjustment due to losing some of the intimidation factor from their forward personnel.

 

[Dan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

So TC invent modern game do you think players and coaches have time to sit around and just throw passes to their weak side.

I mean if the first 3 minutes of off season training was all about the playmakers and other link players running around like gumbies and throwing balls to one side wouldn't our start of season look ridiculous as we have practises all the plays to one side?

Worse still what happens if you are practicing a play that goes across the field but you have one guy passing to the left and the other to the right. The ball is going to end up going to wrong way and the play will break down. Then the coach is just going to get the ****s

Come on TC you really haven't thought this through.

All joking aside if you are playing in the NRL there aren't going to be a whole lot of new tricks for you to learn.

 

[Ryan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Technical Coach. I disagree.

Our right fringe is loaded with our skilled players (Glenn Stewart, Jamie Lyon, Daly Cherry-Evans) who all have a very fast, accurate left to right pass.

Ballin from dummy half is as equally as strong both sides of the ruck (as would be expected of an origin quality Hooker).

How many times have you seen Brett Stewart, Ben Farrar or someone else chime in down that side of the field for a very impressive backline move that results in a try?

That being said, that was one aspect to your post. This is just my opinion, but I find the robotic style of the Melbourne Storm, St George Dragons, and The Sea Eagles of 2008 to be very exciting to watch. Just watching those machines dismantle the opposition does it for me. Backed up by starch defense, fast play the balls, it spells quality, quality, quality.

Being abundantly flash is exciting as well admittedly, but that often leads to errors. Errors coaches like Des, Wayne & Craig don't put up with.

Also, with our injuries, a lot of our players are playing out of position, and on the wrong side of the field. I personally don't think Des would expect Choc, Matai, Foran and co to HAVE that sound a left to right pass, and it's something that would be rarely required that side.

That being said, Foran has a pretty amazing crisp accurate pass both sides (would make a great lock as well as some have said), so honestly, I think we are good.

If we are looking at things we (Manly) could do to improve as a team in my books, it would be to be able to read the opposition attack more, and cut their second phase play down with rock solid defense. In 2008, we had a wall that rarely crumbled. I think a defensive unit would have to defend differently to what it did in 2008, because the game has progressed, but get that right, add a more full strength team, and we have a pretty talented exciting product in the making.

I've loved our on the park player talent for a long time. One more thing guys....

For those critiquing Ox....he, along with 16 other blokes brought you a Premiership in 2008, as well as other GF appearances. Show some respect. 

 

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Come on Dan i did not say practice your weak side passing at training its a personal thing you do as extras. Your over simplifying my comments, Foran and DCE can pass both ways(although obviously stronger right to left) they dont have "ball playing variety" and i stress "ball playing variety" both ways.

Take Cliffy Lyons for example he spiralled right to left and used old school floaters left to right but due to his ball playing variety on both sides his weaker side was hidden. Most of his double pump plays were done right to left (his natural side) and most of his holding the ball back in one motion passes were done on his weak side although he could also do that on his strong side.

I'm sure eventually the attack will evolve but i accepted this simplified corridor structure last year to ease  Foran and Hodkinson into first grade but its time to expand the repertoir and be more flexible with our attack this year.

 

[Dan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Our attack is far superior to last year. In fact we have scored plenty of points we wouldn't have in previous years. What I really like about our attack is unlike other teams we don't play to our wingers.

We have plays across the park and don't just merely play to get it out wide.

Cliffy was a known freak but he couldnt defend. Players like that don't come along all the time.

I think you are over complicating things.

The modern game is far different in so many facets.

 

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Glen Stewart has a strong pass yes but takes too long to spread it when where trying to get around a defence that is struggling to number up on our spreads to that side----the defence knows he is going to pass cause he lacks pace to outrun or straighten up and draw.

Jamie Lyons passing is inconsistent but he does have some nice subtle ball playing skills----but in a fall strength side he is playing centre not a ball playing 5/8(i enjoyed his role in 2008 and it helped our attack immensely) but currently he is a centre so his ball playing is not a factor at the moment.

Daly has potential and you have to give halves time at least 2yrs---he has a more rounded skill base than Hodkinson that's for sure but at the moment is lost and not composed. This is to be expected and i'm not concerned at the moment you have to be patient with the kid but i dont think his performances at the moment are as great as some people are making but he has talent that's for sure.
With Hodkinson you can tell its steady as you go and we basically saw all that he had to offer in terms of skill level.

Ballin has a crisp pass both ways no doubt about that most hookers do these days to allow halves more time---- probably needs a little more pace out of dummy half but his distribution is first class.

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Ryan i love Manly and Melbournes plays in 2008 and i love structure in attack--good structure and technique is what helps you under pressure to remain composed.

The ball playing and change of direction with our forwards through the middle of the field during the 2008 GF was beautiful to watch and it was planned months before to get as much second phase and change of direction in the middle to create openings out wide.

There is a moment in the second half 57:19sec where you see Lestrange nod to King that they are running it on the last tackle----i think it was the Kite try where you see Menzies come from one side to the other up the middle to create the extra man before the interchange of passing that leads to the try great to view if you have the time.

 

[Ryan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Glen Stewart has a strong pass yes but takes too long to spread it when where trying to get around a defence that is struggling to number up on our spreads to that side----the defence knows he is going to pass cause he lacks pace to outrun or straighten up and draw.

Jamie Lyons passing is inconsistent but he does have some nice subtle ball playing skills----but in a fall strength side he is playing centre not a ball playing 5/8(i enjoyed his role in 2008 and it helped our attack immensely) but currently he is a centre so his ball playing is not a factor at the moment.

Daly has potential and you have to give halves time at least 2yrs---he has a more rounded skill base than Hodkinson that's for sure but at the moment is lost and not composed. This is to be expected and i'm not concerned at the moment you have to be patient with the kid but i dont think his performances at the moment are as great as some people are making but he has talent that's for sure.
With Hodkinson you can tell its steady as you go and we basically saw all that he had to offer in terms of skill level.

Ballin has a crisp pass both ways no doubt about that most hookers do these days to allow halves more time---- probably needs a little more pace out of dummy half but his distribution is first class.

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Ryan i love Manly and Melbournes plays in 2008 and i love structure in attack--good structure and technique is what helps you under pressure to remain composed.

The ball playing and change of direction with our forwards through the middle of the field during the 2008 GF was beautiful to watch and it was planned months before to get as much second phase and change of direction in the middle to create openings out wide.

There is a moment in the second half 57:19sec where you see Lestrange nod to King that they are running it on the last tackle----i think it was the Kite try where you see Menzies come from one side to the other up the middle to create the extra man before the interchange of passing that leads to the try great to view if you have the time.

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That bloke (Le'Strange) added a totally different element to our attacking formation, that I'm sure Dessie hoped Seu Seu would do, but could never.

It's a total shame he left our shores.

TC, I think you'll find teams with little injury, and more chemistry due to the consistency will have more varied successful attacking play.

Hell, Cherry-Evans probably doesn't know some of the blokes NAMES he's passing too these days.

Hopefully we can get some continuity through our playing group from this point.

We have the talent to be risky due to high skill level....it comes down to consistency and confidence.

If G Stewart just KNEW Wolfman would be standing deep, running a particular angle due to the fact that they had done it plenty more times that season, he could throw a faster, more crisp left to right pass that could surprise the opposition.

 

[Dan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Glen Stewart has a strong pass yes but takes too long to spread it when where trying to get around a defence that is struggling to number up on our spreads to that side----the defence knows he is going to pass cause he lacks pace to outrun or straighten up and draw.

Jamie Lyons passing is inconsistent but he does have some nice subtle ball playing skills----but in a fall strength side he is playing centre not a ball playing 5/8(i enjoyed his role in 2008 and it helped our attack immensely) but currently he is a centre so his ball playing is not a factor at the moment.

Daly has potential and you have to give halves time at least 2yrs---he has a more rounded skill base than Hodkinson that's for sure but at the moment is lost and not composed. This is to be expected and i'm not concerned at the moment you have to be patient with the kid but i dont think his performances at the moment are as great as some people are making but he has talent that's for sure.
With Hodkinson you can tell its steady as you go and we basically saw all that he had to offer in terms of skill level.

Ballin has a crisp pass both ways no doubt about that most hookers do these days to allow halves more time---- probably needs a little more pace out of dummy half but his distribution is first class.

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Ryan i love Manly and Melbournes plays in 2008 and i love structure in attack--good structure and technique is what helps you under pressure to remain composed.

The ball playing and change of direction with our forwards through the middle of the field during the 2008 GF was beautiful to watch and it was planned months before to get as much second phase and change of direction in the middle to create openings out wide.

There is a moment in the second half 57:19sec where you see Lestrange nod to King that they are running it on the last tackle----i think it was the Kite try where you see Menzies come from one side to the other up the middle to create the extra man before the interchange of passing that leads to the try great to view if you have the time.

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TC you are an absolute lunatic.

Like I said before we don't often play to our wingers. The idea is to spread it and either pick up an inside runner, or throw the cutout.

As for Lyon.....a few subtle variations?
That is an understatement.

You are aware that you can't hear your voice when you type you know

 

[bazeagle]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Please. Please.
Lengthy posts are mind numbingly too hard to bother with reading. I'm sure the poster feels they have much of great benefit to say, thats fine, but I glaze over.
I reckon posts should have a maximum word count. That would stop the crap being dished up here.

 

[jbb/james]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Teams that consistently spread the ball over the last 10 years, left to righ, right to left are
The cowboys, the tigers and Canberra

Teams that have played with limitations over the last 10 years are melbourne, manly, dragons, roosters

Results speak for themselves

As successful teams lose players consistently due to the cap playing a brand of football that allows other players to fit into the team, seems sensible. Building teams around individuals is NOT

Hey TC , if you are so concerned, and you belive you are correct. Write a submission, send it to DES. If it has merrit im sure he will thank you.It is always written that DES will leave no stone unturned. Just a hint, maybe you should have a point and take a few shortcuts getting to it

 

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

I'm not advertising willy nilly ball spreading if you are unable to understand the context of my post which to simplify it once again is "lack of precise clinical efficient ball playing to our right". We either have forwards throwing lolly pop passes or halves throwing standard safe torpedo passes without any creativity in relation to going to the line and ball playing.


Subtle variations is a compliment Dan---the ability to look like your doing the same thing but with a different result is all class but Jamie does have his rough edges also and Glen is stuttering shuffling and crabbing back in field too often.

 

[Fro]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Can you put a bit more depth in your explanations TC, i find myself wanting more at times, its like a 3 course meal with Coffee in place of dessert, technically its what was advertised but its sadly unsatisfying....

 

[Technical Coach]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

How technical do you want me to go i'm not going to go to the depth of how in the preseason corridor lines for the half and 5/8 should of been established beyond the limitations we have now.

(From sideline to sideline) Middle third halves,  outer third floating 5/8,  option 5/8's,  certain forwards used for outside in runs to bundle up defences,  blockers,  making sure leg drive forwards and the odd back get the ball at the right time increasing the chances of landing face down for maximum play the ball speed during the critical 3rd tackle before a set play and 5th tackle before a kick etc etc etc

Foran is doing what he did early last year on the same side but a little better. As the weather cools and the slower tracks become more prevalent he will struggle to have an impact exactly like last year especially with a forward pack not going forward.

G. Stewart should be a ball playing backrower not your main 5/8 option going right. First he should be concentrating on his go forward and cutting out the odd lazy arm tackles.(i still dont think his arm or shoulder is right) and ease up on his slowing the play the ball habits.  Ball play through the middle more.

Easier to explain the corridors i would play with a pen and paper but i dont intend to hand out my ideas for free or bore you any longer with long posts so i will ease back and just support the side adding only 2 cents worth not a SMH piece without the pay to justify it.

 

[DailyTerrorgraphHater]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

I enjoyed TC's analysis. At least he is offering a perspective that few of us had considered. I'll watch out for it in the next match. Personally, I don't think its any harder passing left-to-right than right-to-left, and if any player has difficulty then he should be called a professional.

Maybe your right, certainly that *should* be one of the key differences between the NRL level player and the semi-professional level of player below it. That and the fact that all players are built like mack trucks and probably carrying an extra 10 kg.

Having said TC has a point in that passing speed right to left is still a concern for the majority of teams.

 

[Dan]

Re: Boring Modern Attacks of "All Clubs"

Can you put a bit more depth in your explanations TC, i find myself wanting more at times, its like a 3 course meal with Coffee in place of dessert, technically its what was advertised but its sadly unsatisfying....

brilliant....