Financial position

[Snake]

I was just reading an old article on the web about how rich Manly were in the 70's and 80's due to a thriving leagues club, and the relationship between Bob Fulton and Kerry Packer.

I was a long way off being born in those days, so I am not well versed in the finances of our great club. Could someone with more knowledge in this area enlighten me?

I understand we went broke around the time of the Northern Eagles debacle, and Max Delmege had to bail us out. How did we end up broke? Why did Max sever ties?

Where does our money come from these days? Do the Penn family prop up the club a la Russell Crowe at Souths?

Many thanks.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Google 'super league'

 

[MadMarcus]

We had the best roster in the game in the mid 90s during Super League. When the SL war was on player salaries were absolutely out of control. Unlike the SL clubs (who were funded by News), we had to foot the bill (or at least the lions share of it) ourselves to keep our stars loyal to the ARL. We were mostly successful in doing that but it cleaned us out financially and forced us to take some cash (I think it was an $8m grant from the NRL) to merge with the Bears.

It is no coincidence that all Sydney SL clubs survived the criteria and only Sydney ARL clubs were kicked out of the comp or forced to merge. News planned it that way.

It is timely that you raise this. It is certainly another reason to support the Bunnies against the SL Dogs on Sunday. The decision to kick them out of the competition clearly showed that the decision makers had no idea about the game (a bit like the decision makers we have today, but worse).

 

[Denno]

Strong feeling that certain powers that be- want to see a couple of more sydney based clubs gone ,Manly being one of them .....?

 

[eagle66]

The Leagues Club made a terrible decision when they decided to renovate/refurbish the club and introduced the gym. This decision began the downfall of the finances of the Leagues Club. Money was not injected into the poker machine installation, at a time when club's were making record profits, at times month after month. It looked like that the pokie players then started to drift to other clubs and pubs as they were granted poker machines and they were improving their gaming areas.
Hence the grants to the football decreased. I believe it was the Football Club's war chest that was emptied out due to the Super LEague war. Unlike Parramatta who were given the 3 or 4 Bulldog players, Easts who were given Fittler and Sing. You may say that each of these clubs paid these players but it was the ARL who paid them to switch which Manly did not receive any benefit.

 

[Snake]

We had the best roster in the game in the mid 90s during Super League. When the SL war was on player salaries were absolutely out of control. Unlike the SL clubs (who were funded by News), we had to foot the bill (or at least the lions share of it) ourselves to keep our stars loyal to the ARL. We were mostly successful in doing that but it cleaned us out financially and forced us to take some cash (I think it was an $8m grant from the NRL) to merge with the Bears.

It is no coincidence that all Sydney SL clubs survived the criteria and only Sydney ARL clubs were kicked out of the comp or forced to merge. News planned it that way.

It is timely that you raise this. It is certainly another reason to support the Bunnies against the SL Dogs on Sunday. The decision to kick them out of the competition clearly showed that the decision makers had no idea about the game (a bit like the decision makers we have today, but worse).

Wonderful post! This makes perfect sense. I was only a boy during the super league days so I am still learning of the effects it had on our club and the game at large.

---

The Leagues Club made a terrible decision when they decided to renovate/refurbish the club and introduced the gym. This decision began the downfall of the finances of the Leagues Club. Money was not injected into the poker machine installation, at a time when club's were making record profits, at times month after month. It looked like that the pokie players then started to drift to other clubs and pubs as they were granted poker machines and they were improving their gaming areas.
Hence the grants to the football decreased. I believe it was the Football Club's war chest that was emptied out due to the Super LEague war. Unlike Parramatta who were given the 3 or 4 Bulldog players, Easts who were given Fittler and Sing. You may say that each of these clubs paid these players but it was the ARL who paid them to switch which Manly did not receive any benefit.

Interesting thoughts on the leagues club. So we missed out on profits from poker machines by not taking advantage of the gaming boom.

 

[From the F6]

Yep Google Super League you will understand a hell of a lot more, i think it was the Dogs that back doored ARL which gave power to news to get it cracking, As much as i hate to say it we Gotta support the Rabbits in this one

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Bloody Super League, its funny those wounds still run deep, especially with us older supporters.

 

[Hamster Huey]

I was just reading an old article on the web about how rich Manly were in the 70's and 80's due to a thriving leagues club, and the relationship between Bob Fulton and Kerry Packer.

I was a long way off being born in those days, so I am not well versed in the finances of our great club. Could someone with more knowledge in this area enlighten me?

I understand we went broke around the time of the Northern Eagles debacle, and Max Delmege had to bail us out. How did we end up broke? Why did Max sever ties?

Where does our money come from these days? Do the Penn family prop up the club a la Russell Crowe at Souths?

Many thanks.

Basically, Manly were always considered solid to the ARL and were never going to be approached by SL to defect. Other Sydney clubs were vulnerable and the likes of Newcastle, Parramatta and Dragons were financially supported by the ARL to stave off SL advances. Manly loaned millions through the ARL in funds to maintain the fight, with an expectation that we'd see it back once things settled.

But the compromise by Neil Whittaker (then ARL CEO) effectively saw Sydney clubs shafted as well as the debt to Manly disappeared...we never received it back and were left in a bad situation in the Criteria, despite our recent on-field successes.

There is a lot of good background through the AUSTLII database, and if anybody is keen to dredge through the ins and outs, you'll find the relevent cases here (in chrono order);

FCA 1256; FCA 1310; FCA 1347; FCA 870; FCA 1813.

 

[ABTK]

Bloody Super League, its funny those wounds still run deep, especially with us older supporters.

I'm with you there, Mark. It's also the reason why some of us 'older' supporters lost interest in the game for quite a few years too...

 

[bob dylan]

I hear if you are "financial" they don't mind any "position".

 

[Andy 1972]

Bloody Super League, its funny those wounds still run deep, especially with us older supporters.

Super League was the worst time in the game's history. Its amazing that News started it saying that the ARL (namely Arko and John Quayle) ran the game badly, and yet they are 10 times better than the muppets who have ran the game since, including the morons who run it now. I will never support Canterbury in any game. Many people, including Arko blame them for getting Super League off the ground. They were a traditional Sydney club with a long history, whereas many of the other clubs who jumped ship were clubs like Brisbane and Canberra who hadn't been in the game very long.

Andy1972
Manly Forever

 

[Merdy33]

I was just reading an old article on the web about how rich Manly were in the 70's and 80's due to a thriving leagues club, and the relationship between Bob Fulton and Kerry Packer.

I was a long way off being born in those days, so I am not well versed in the finances of our great club. Could someone with more knowledge in this area enlighten me?

I understand we went broke around the time of the Northern Eagles debacle, and Max Delmege had to bail us out. How did we end up broke? Why did Max sever ties?

Where does our money come from these days? Do the Penn family prop up the club a la Russell Crowe at Souths?

Many thanks.

Basically, Manly were always considered solid to the ARL and were never going to be approached by SL to defect. Other Sydney clubs were vulnerable and the likes of Newcastle, Parramatta and Dragons were financially supported by the ARL to stave off SL advances. Manly loaned millions through the ARL in funds to maintain the fight, with an expectation that we'd see it back once things settled.

But the compromise by Neil Whittaker (then ARL CEO) effectively saw Sydney clubs shafted as well as the debt to Manly disappeared...we never received it back and were left in a bad situation in the Criteria, despite our recent on-field successes.

There is a lot of good background through the AUSTLII database, and if anybody is keen to dredge through the ins and outs, you'll find the relevent cases here (in chrono order);

FCA 1256; FCA 1310; FCA 1347; FCA 870; FCA 1813.

Whittaker was a boy doing a man's job in the negotiation. In my opinion the ARL had won the battle for hearts and minds after the 1997 season. Super league came out of it much better than they should have. In my opinion if the ARL had of held on a season of two longer, super league would've had to come back cap in hand. I largely blame Whittaker for how Manly ended up.

 

[niccipops]

@Snake that SL era was horrible for those of us old enough to remember. We actually lost our team for a couple of years.
If supporters think things are bad now with a few older Sea Eagle players reportedly looking to fly the nest, we just need to remember these two words - Northern Eagles.
Manly have done amazingly well to have tilted on the brink of extinction and then fight back to become a consistent premiership force.
We did it without the help of a movie star. 😉
Go Manly!

 

[ALinda]

@Snake that SL era was horrible for those of us old enough to remember. We actually lost our team for a couple of years.
If supporters think things are bad now with a few older Sea Eagle players reportedly looking to fly the nest, we just need to remember these two words - Northern Eagles.
Manly have done amazingly well to have tilted on the brink of extinction and then fight back to become a consistent premiership force.
We did it without the help of a movie star. 😉
Go Manly!

Well said niccipops and so say all of us! 🙂

 

[Ryan]

@Snake that SL era was horrible for those of us old enough to remember. We actually lost our team for a couple of years.
If supporters think things are bad now with a few older Sea Eagle players reportedly looking to fly the nest, we just need to remember these two words - Northern Eagles.
Manly have done amazingly well to have tilted on the brink of extinction and then fight back to become a consistent premiership force.
We did it without the help of a movie star. 😉
Go Manly!

What about The Wolverine 🙂

On topic, I reckon the 100k we would have received from the minor premiership would have been awesome. Shame really to come so close.

 

[Snake]

@Snake that SL era was horrible for those of us old enough to remember. We actually lost our team for a couple of years.
If supporters think things are bad now with a few older Sea Eagle players reportedly looking to fly the nest, we just need to remember these two words - Northern Eagles.
Manly have done amazingly well to have tilted on the brink of extinction and then fight back to become a consistent premiership force.
We did it without the help of a movie star. 😉
Go Manly!

What about The Wolverine 🙂

On topic, I reckon the 100k we would have received from the minor premiership would have been awesome. Shame really to come so close.

I was really disappointed that we missed out on the minor premiership. Not so much for the money, but because with all the injuries we had at the back end of year, I doubted very strongly that we could win a GF, so to at least take something tangible away from a great season would have been nice.

 

[Ramrod]

OK. I think I have this figured, but I don't know it all.

St George may be the first footy club to have a Leagues club. They started in 1953.
Manly Leagues started trading on 9/4/57.
Parra had one more than two years later on 22/8/59.

Our Leagues club was our original cash cow.
It paid for a lot and it used to be profitable.
The mistake in the 80s was not upgrading the club fast enough to what some of the competitors have.

By the 90s, Murdoch and Packer had a tussle over the rights to the game and Arko/ARL, loyal as ever, had a handshake agreement with Packer, refused to break the contract. Because of the Packer and Murdoch egos, they almost destroyed Manly through Super League. However, Sarah O'Hare did campaign to help bring us back in 2002 and she's now part of the Murdoch clan.

What Hamster said is pretty spot on to what I thought. We helped the ARL to stay afloat by digging into our own pockets. Money went out and never came back. Those clubs like Parra and their fans are never grateful enough, considering we gifted them Dymock, McCracken, Jason Smith and Dean Pay in '96 (before then, they failed to make the finals for ten years). Still they hate us for helping them. Fittler went to Easts because it would have imbalanced the competition if he were to wear the maroon and white).

When the '99 season came to an end, we had the dilemma of going alone or merge with Norths or let Norths die on their own. Not many had the guts to go alone, so they tried the merger. Fatty was against the merger and he was proven right because by the time the merger died, we were back in the same position back in 1999! The merger was the saddest time for Manly.

You can see the money disappearing when the Leagues Club had to sell the huge land (used as a car park) on Victor Street, what is now the Travelodge.

Then came Max Delmege. He claimed to have gifted Manly $15 million over the time he was a majority owner. I believe Max took over the ex-Football Club office land on Victor Street (that's why it was relocated to Narrabeen), and may be still under Max's control? The Penn family came in because money was running dry. Football clubs are expensive to run. You don't own one to make a profit from it, but for the love of it.

Max also had run ins with De$ over player retention too. Just on media reports and conjectures, - Max wanted to keep Monaghan when De$ wanted to punt him, resulting in ugly news reports and fans uproar and Monaghan's contract was extended. Max also wanted to keep the Beaver because Beaver was popular and a BIG drawcard for fans. De$ saw differently, resulting in further disagreements and Beaver was forced out of Manly.

Around 2008, I suspect the Penns asked Delmege for money to have his name on the jersey for 2009. I guess Max thought he should have been given more allowances as he had spent a bit over the years. We should be grateful to Max for saving us in 2003. In 2009, entered Quantum to buy into the ownership and as the main sponsor on the jersey for a couple of years.

The Leagues club went into further debt and there were accusations of dodgy loans and a previous director is now banned from entering the club. If you were at the Leagues Club AGM a couple of years back, you would have seen the ugly dispute about this. Who is right, I don't know.

Correct me if I'm wrong = Due to the inability of the Leagues Club to stay afloat due to loans from the bank (NAB?), it was sold off to the Penns. The Penns decided to lease the lower premises back to the Leagues Club and the top floor to the gym. How much does Manly Leagues own now? Probably zilch. Very sad.

Again, thanks to the Penns for pouring money in because without them, we would be in trouble again. I believe the Penns like to have tight controls so that they can manage their businesses their way. My opinion: The one wrong decision is that we should have expanded the Leagues Club poker machines, not shrink it. I'm all for people gambling to help us stay financially healthy 🙂

 

[Jethro]

I think that the poker machine tax and the introduction of poker machines into pubs came into the equation too which took a hell of a lot of profit away from not only the Manly Leagues Club but from all clubs in general and not only from poker machine revenue either.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Basically, Manly were always considered solid to the ARL and were never going to be approached by SL to defect. Other Sydney clubs were vulnerable and the likes of Newcastle, Parramatta and Dragons were financially supported by the ARL to stave off SL advances. Manly loaned millions through the ARL in funds to maintain the fight, with an expectation that we'd see it back once things settled.

But the compromise by Neil Whittaker (then ARL CEO) effectively saw Sydney clubs shafted as well as the debt to Manly disappeared...we never received it back and were left in a bad situation in the Criteria, despite our recent on-field successes.

Does anyone know exactly who from Manly was responsible for giving away our wealth without any legally binding arrangement for compensation? If that is what happened it seems a gross dereliction of duty on the part of whoever controlled our club at the time.