Politics / Elections

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
If it's not unique then what is your point? Presumably you are not suggesting you are incapable of forming a view of what is happening in the world without having spent time 30 years ago living in each part of it.
Maybe you need to explain your concept of "unbiased learning"!
I think my point was that people like to make up opinions on things without really considering how they did did. Then they refuse to move from these ideas or consider that they could be incorrect and when challenged offer zero reasoning. There is nothing wrong with having a view, but there is something very wrong with having a view which you believe is 100% yet cannot in any way justify (other than belief).
In terms of unbiased learning, I mean exploring facts and ideas without already believing that one idea is the correct one and dismissing or avoiding anything that doesn't fit.
E.G. Listening to Trump say something, having that idea validated by what was then said on Fox and Friends and committing 100% to that idea. Or reading an opinion in the Guardian and then using a Seth Myers monolog to set your opinion in concrete.
 

manly al

First Grader
I think my point was that people like to make up opinions on things without really considering how they did did. Then they refuse to move from these ideas or consider that they could be incorrect and when challenged offer zero reasoning. There is nothing wrong with having a view, but there is something very wrong with having a view which you believe is 100% yet cannot in any way justify (other than belief).
In terms of unbiased learning, I mean exploring facts and ideas without already believing that one idea is the correct one and dismissing or avoiding anything that doesn't fit.
E.G. Listening to Trump say something, having that idea validated by what was then said on Fox and Friends and committing 100% to that idea. Or reading an opinion in the Guardian and then using a Seth Myers monolog to set your opinion in concrete.
That is one reason why diversity in general media news and social media news is even more imperative in recent times . Hardly think for instance that having Murdock controlling 70 per cent of the newspaper outlets in Australia then also the composite format of Sky news for example can ever give a balanced presentation of news and general issues .. Same premise can no doubt be said of the Guardian and similar outlets [ but let"s realistically exclude the A B C ] for instance also but that has no where near the same influence or social conditioning as the Murdock modis operative . Personal opinion and viewpoint can be governed and influenced by any number of factors but again when there is a clear disproportionate news mix for a general public to digest , will undoubtedly make rational and sensible opinion forming and outlook more the poorer .
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
That is one reason why diversity in general media news and social media news is even more imperative in recent times . Hardly think for instance that having Murdock controlling 70 per cent of the newspaper outlets in Australia then also the composite format of Sky news for example can ever give a balanced presentation of news and general issues .. Same premise can no doubt be said of the Guardian and similar outlets [ but let"s realistically exclude the A B C ] for instance also but that has no where near the same influence or social conditioning as the Murdock modis operative . Personal opinion and viewpoint can be governed and influenced by any number of factors but again when there is a clear disproportionate news mix for a general public to digest , will undoubtedly make rational and sensible opinion forming and outlook more the poorer .
True, but I think there is also a bigger problem here that is effectively caused by the availability of many diverse sources. It's too easy now to find an outlet which agrees with everything you already think.
After all you can find anything on the internet....BUT then again....you can find anything on the internet. So you never have to have you views questioned ever again. And no matter how crazy your ideas are you can always find some other nutter who will give you all the praise and reaffirmation you need.
For me, I say; F making sure that our english and maths skills are the best in the world - I want to have the best critical thinkers coming out of our schools. Yes english and maths are still critical but if we don't understand what we are actually applying these skills to. I really don't want to see a world of well spoken and convincing anti vaxxers - I don't think that will happen but it is frightening how easily people can be convinced of something.
 

Woodsie

Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Member
I am a member of a well known and respected History facebook page .... and the one thing that often surprises me is that many Historians judge/comment.evaluate historical fiqures by modern ethics .... some are like didn't Gengis Khan read the Geniva Convention?
 

manly al

First Grader
True, but I think there is also a bigger problem here that is effectively caused by the availability of many diverse sources. It's too easy now to find an outlet which agrees with everything you already think.
After all you can find anything on the internet....BUT then again....you can find anything on the internet. So you never have to have you views questioned ever again. And no matter how crazy your ideas are you can always find some other nutter who will give you all the praise and reaffirmation you need.
For me, I say; F making sure that our english and maths skills are the best in the world - I want to have the best critical thinkers coming out of our schools. Yes english and maths are still critical but if we don't understand what we are actually applying these skills to. I really don't want to see a world of well spoken and convincing anti vaxxers - I don't think that will happen but it is frightening how easily people can be convinced of something.
Would also hope that some basic common sense and even some slightly inclined more open thinking can still play a part in forming better or well rounded opinions and viewpoints .. Some opinions are so entrenched or so easily manipulated that regardless of the merit of an alternative perspective , thinking and positions on some issues or topics are incapable of being changed or shifted or subject to more rational thought . .
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
Would also hope that some basic common sense and even some slightly inclined more open thinking can still play a part in forming better or well rounded opinions and viewpoints .. Some opinions are so entrenched or so easily manipulated that regardless of the merit of an alternative perspective , thinking and positions on some issues or topics are incapable of being changed or shifted or subject to more rational thought . .
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I agree with most of that except that you had to raise common sense. 'Cause really what is common sense other than an unfounded belief that you believe everyone should hold. There are plenty of examples where your personal common sense would apply to everyone - ie. its common sense not to stab yourself with sharp objects but I've also been told that voting for a particular party is just common sense.
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I think my point was that people like to make up opinions on things without really considering how they did did. Then they refuse to move from these ideas or consider that they could be incorrect and when challenged offer zero reasoning. There is nothing wrong with having a view, but there is something very wrong with having a view which you believe is 100% yet cannot in any way justify (other than belief).
In terms of unbiased learning, I mean exploring facts and ideas without already believing that one idea is the correct one and dismissing or avoiding anything that doesn't fit.
E.G. Listening to Trump say something, having that idea validated by what was then said on Fox and Friends and committing 100% to that idea. Or reading an opinion in the Guardian and then using a Seth Myers monolog to set your opinion in concrete.
Thanks for a thoughtful answer. However, my point was more, are we not all biased? Politics concerns power and we’ve all got some material interest in whatever is happening, and that naturally colours our view of whatever policies are proposed.

I've occasionally followed your back and forth with Kev about religion - gets very circular! But with politics, it is not a metaphysical search for general ‘truths’.
Neither is it an exercise in critical thinking. In fact, the ideal of a ‘dispassionate observer’ in politics is merely a fiction.
As we all know, even the most rational, enlightened and consistent views can be ruthlessly suppressed, if those in power oppose them. And, short of that, they can also be overcome simply by a proliferation of misinformation, aka propaganda campaigns.

In the end I suggest an opinion, whether rooted firmly in science or alternatively on mere blind prejudice, becomes true or not depending not on unbiased learning but on who holds it, and who holds power!
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
Thanks for a thoughtful answer. However, my point was more, are we not all biased? Politics concerns power and we’ve all got some material interest in whatever is happening, and that naturally colours our view of whatever policies are proposed.

I've occasionally followed your back and forth with Kev about religion - gets very circular! But with politics, it is not a metaphysical search for general ‘truths’.
Neither is it an exercise in critical thinking. In fact, the ideal of a ‘dispassionate observer’ in politics is merely a fiction.
As we all know, even the most rational, enlightened and consistent views can be ruthlessly suppressed, if those in power oppose them. And, short of that, they can also be overcome simply by a proliferation of misinformation, aka propaganda campaigns.

In the end I suggest an opinion, whether rooted firmly in science or alternatively on mere blind prejudice, becomes true or not depending not on unbiased learning but on who holds it, and who holds power!
100% I think we are all biased. But I'm not entirely sure on your point here either.
I don't expect anyone to abandon opinions in return for objective facts - that simply wouldn't work as facts don't contain goals.
But I do think that through better critical thinking and understanding where our opinions come from we can better avoid misinformation and propaganda. This is what I am attempting to advocate for, along with open communication of the reasoning behind opinions in the hope that people can come to better understanding of each other and why their ideas deserve merit. But that's not what is happening on forums such as this. It is; my opinion is valid because it's my opinion - to that I say BS.
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
But I do think that through better critical thinking and understanding where our opinions come from we can better avoid misinformation and propaganda. This is what I am attempting to advocate fo
I agree with you that is a worthwhile goal. And some topics demand an attempt to correct misinformation or dishonest reasoning. As to which ones, that is a matter of our politics ;)
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
Yes well that is just frustrating and who feels like arguing with a brick wall? although some seem to find sport in it.
I think it's possibly most frustrating when applied to politics. Most people would agree that pretty much all (or all) of our current political systems are in some way flawed. Yet there is very little (constructive) discussion on how to improve them. And people who do raise issues are labeled as communists, Nazis or just another greedy fat cat.
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
It does go back to the Israel Folau case for me.
Does he have a right to state his opinion - sure
But unchallenged? And as though, as an opinion, the idea itself was somehow valid. But that's what happened - no discourse, no discussion of why something was right or wrong just a yes/no decision based on opinions. No one can learn and nothing can improve if that's what we do.
Politics is the same, as is whether Tom wright could have been the next immortal and should have taken another's spot.
 
Hehe I think the fact that man wasn’t struck by lightning during that pose casts grave doubt about the existence of the big G
Trump is one of the few with the courage to stand up to the chaos that the "woke" left has created. Restore order and the truth and we will all be better off. But go against the word of God (like the goddless left wants) and look what happens to the world.
There's your proof, it's all there and it's undeniable!!!!!
 

Woodsie

Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Member
Trump is one of the few with the courage to stand up to the chaos that the "woke" left has created. Restore order and the truth and we will all be better off. But go against the word of God (like the goddless left wants) and look what happens to the world.
There's your proof, it's all there and it's undeniable!!!!!

Is the omnipotent one now aligned with a particular political side ? ... Good Lord .. what next .. nuns handing out how to vote cards ..
 
Is the omnipotent one now aligned with a particular political side ? ... Good Lord .. what next .. nuns handing out how to vote cards ..
Well when one side of politics starts rioting, looting and murdering it is pretty clear where their morals come from!!!
And they don't come from God!!!!
 

Woodsie

Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Member
Well when one side of politics starts rioting, looting and murdering it is pretty clear where their morals come from!!!
And they don't come from God!!!!

Wow ... I've missed all this ... what side of politics is rioting, murdering and looting ? bloody hell ... they'll be pillaging before we know it ...
 
Wow ... I've missed all this ... what side of politics is rioting, murdering and looting ? bloody hell ... they'll be pillaging before we know it ...
FFS... I'm guessing your too old (and too far gone) to own a TV then. Or do they just limit what you watch in the old farts home!?
FMD...Even if you watch the mainstream leftard media you can't deny what is happening. They can try to pin it on Trump, but who is actually commiting these acts? And who is now trying to defend them?
 

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