"Taking Unders", and the decline of the once-great clubs in the modern game

[Brookie Bob]

Take Underachievers and your club will decline Perspective ...

The Biggest Reason for the Biggest Decline of Great clubs in the Modern Era
Is Investing in Underachievers as Underachievers fail to Deliver !

Here are the facts and everything else is a fiction of underachieving excuses .
The Bottom of the 8 Underachieving Clubs
The Pascoes at the Tigers ,
The Doust at the Dragons
and Mestrov and Seibold at Manly
View attachment 24838

@AlxFromNthNarra name-checked the Penns on the Manly side and V'Landys from the NRL side as being integral to our Winter of Discontent, but you've made it all about Mestrov and Seibold.

We're all entitled to an opinion, and for reasons best known to yourself, you usually pick Seibold and Mestrov. If you have inside information on why specifically, please share - without being libelous.

An alternate hypothesis - everything starts at the (very) top, and is multiplied over time.

Pascoe has been at the Tigers since 2017, and Doust was at the Dragons for 18 years, finishing in 2018. I agree - both sub-par chief officials.

However, the Penns own our club, the Sea Eagles. Both Seibold and Mestrov are relatively recent arrivals, and both these guys must surely say on a daily basis 'how high?' when the Penns say 'jump'.
If you're looking at a longer, sustained, far greater influence on where Manly are at, then look at the Penns - as stated by @AlxFromNthNarra in his original post.

 

[ABTK]

Speaking of the very lopsided EPL, I remember seeing a reporter talking to Leicester fans turning up to the last (or second last) game of the year of the 15/16 season - if they won that game then they'd win the comp. The one person that stood out was this quietly-spoken bloke who said "I've been following Leicester for over 50 years and I'd really like to see them win it... just once..." That is what we'll get to with the NRL if we're not careful with a fixed top four and one of the teams making up the numbers (that includes Manly) taking the prize once every 25 years...

 

[StuBoot]

Having a marquee player system which allocates concessions for players that fit the mould so they can't be forced to move like the Bulldogs example? But every club gets to have this concession. (that probably needs to be another post/topic tho!)

Unless it's been changed the long serving player concession in essence means well but isn't fair and equitable.
From memory it is capped at a certain amount, say $300k that is exempt from the cap BUT that can be used for just one player or many.
For a long serving marquee player an extra $50-75k a year isn't that much of a difference really but $150-300k is, so keeping a squad together is tough.

If I recall correctly, the Gifty scenario was dismissed by the NRL at the time as "you're allowed the long serving player allowance*, use it" but they failed to understand that we also had 5-6 other players that were eligible as well.
* I think it was only $100K back then.

 

[Stuey Davis’s Socks]

Haha yeah im in a different timezone and i wrote it over a couple of days on the weekend before remembering to post it think it might have been powered by a few drinks....didn't realise how long it was after copy paste :O

But thanks everyone who gets through it.

(Probably should have TLDR versions on these haha)

Should come with an Executive Summary
You make some interesting points.

 

[DUFFMAN]

The salary cap is broken and everyone knows it but if we pretend it is working then everything is fine.

I've said it many times the only transparent way is a points cap, you can pay a player $ 200,000 or $2,000,000 a season but he still is worth the same points.

Players points are based on if they are a club player, origin player or a test player.
If a player makes themselves unavailable for rep footy they are still valued as a rep player (stops clubs pressuring players to retire from rep footy to keep points value down)

Long term at a club get a discount point value, same as a local junior (local junior only if played majority of games in local area up to 14 to stop clubs buying kids)

A relative of mine played with the roosters for many years.
We use to say to him what is reported you are contracted for is a lot less then what you receive.
He said it was correct but his daughter said that's crap dad, you did't pay for our private school fees, pool cleaner and cars, he just grinned.
His wife also worked at a sponsor on a great wage for only a few hours a week, all this bypasses a salary cap.

 

[eaglebuzz]

A relative of mine played with the roosters for many years.
We use to say to him what is reported you are contracted for is a lot less then what you receive.
He said it was correct but his daughter said that's crap dad, you did't pay for our private school fees, pool cleaner and cars, he just grinned.
His wife also worked at a sponsor on a great wage for only a few hours a week, all this bypasses a salary cap.

This (and a bunch of other dodgy crap no doubt) is why players are so happy to take "unders" to play for the roosters.

I have a lot more respect for the Panthers. Theirs success has come in the back of developing a core group from their juniors and then the next man up mentality.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Players taking Unders to stay at Manly.

THAT is what I crave to read about our club again. It's unfair, it's against the spirit of the game - but I love Manly and will give them certain exceptions in pursuit of success.

But we don't demand success in the same way anymore...do we? So.....what is the alternative? We don't collect spoons yet.... but we ARE an... Also. Ran. Club. In the modern era anyway

Looking at you Scotty (Penn) - how are you promoting our club's privilege above your own? Vegas? Maybe. Let's see if Hugh Jackman decides to Gladiator it out with Rusty Crowe. It could be our greatest attention-seeking win - or not.

And whilst on Penn, what are you actually going to do, other than milk the new-found US cow for your own benefit? Please. Please....prove me wrong. I would relish you to show us up here. Turn the Vegas showase into a club-benefitting outcome, rather than some personally reinforcing ego hit.

Otherwise - WTF are you doing with our club? None of us want this club to be the foundation of your self-promotion. We are not getting the results we are used to as supporters. We don't give a flying FK about your personal, egotistically driven powertrip.

===========================

This is meant as a SERIOUS THREAD. The club management is seemingly starting to accept a mid-table mediocrity that is an acceptance of defeat in the new NRL era.

We can either be one of the 'hero clubs' that gets the league leg-up, or we become a club where mediocrity governs our position - as the NRL re-defines its landscape under V'Landys.

Fool yourself all you want - this is the cut-throat era of NRL, and its winner takes all. NEWSFLASH - we aren't the 'winners' of the 70-90's and we haven't been for a long time now. Not since V'Landys got involved anyway. We need to differentiate against the status-quo and recreate our 21st-century identity.

We aren't Silvertails in pracitice anymore, not in a way we can bank on, with a manner of complacency.

======================

I'm always reading this about players moving-to/staying-with other clubs like Rooters and Penrith. For "Unders"

Just this is the last week alone:

• John Bateman prepared to take unders to join Roosters and break his 4-year contract at Tigers - after 1 year....totally normal of course.
• Jarome Luai told he won't get more than (600-650k) to stay with Panthers, when market-value he could fetch 900k - but wtf would the SMH know - he will stay at Panthers and every media outlet will justify this decision as an understandable move, a cultural fit - even if Penrith win a 3rd premiership on the trot, the competition is closer than ever!

Pity, that when Manly tried it in the past - like with Gifty - its called out as being against the rules/spirit of the game and vetoed by the NRL (well....maybe it was just that twat Greenberg).

Gifty was Manly. Bleeds Manly. Listen to Jake talk about him at his 200th. The guy IS FKN MANLY. It was beatiful to hear.

Yet the NRL saw Gifty's retention as an imbalance. The NRL (at the time) were like.... yeah....nah mate. Off to Souths with ya. Even tho Brett is lame for a season and Matai's (seriously godly) shoulders are shot.....nup. Gifty eyeballed me after the 2011 GF, and that is direspectful (Todd.....probably).

However, now we as a collective NRL supporter-base are cool with this 'unders' idea a few years later? Why? What happened? Don't people see where this leads?

Seems when other teams do this nowadays - retention-by-loyalty-or-culture schtick - its kinda accepted as fair play. And the players doing this are empathised with. What is best for their careers blah blah blah - even if they break a 4-year contract, and crush the supporters' dreams at the same time (Bateman).

I am surely not the only one who has a problem with this.

If we continue this trend then we entrench an "English Premier League" type of privilege in which some clubs always compete for glory. Hello Rooters (Manchester United), Panthers (Manchester City), Broncos (Liverpool), Souths (Russell-Crowe-by-Tyne) and Storm (Arsenal) as the main offenders - and other clubs can burn in the mediocrity bloodbath. When does relegation kick-in plzz?

From Manly's perspective, it would be nice to retain talented juniors like Kaeo. We showed this year that depth players get a run - we rarely escape the injury bogeyman it seems.

Is Kaeo the perfect player? Perhaps not.... but we developed him, trained him, gave him (admittedly limited) opportunity - and now he potentially goes to open market, coz we have a few players (who may get injured) ahead in the pecking-order and we can't afford him? a player with 12 starting games to his record?

Same with the Fainus' (I get their manager played the game), to get a bloated deal from the Tigers, not long after securing a bloated deal with Manly for a 1st-grade contract (when in reggies) worth a LOT. Was that the Fulton switcheroo, or forward-loading brilliance on the part of Scott Fulton/Tigers?.... we'll see soon enough i'm sure. The Storm would have got them at half the price if they were keen i bet.

I just hope the "Seibold system" at Manly returns us to a place which players crave to operate in. Listening to an interview/podcast with Turbo recently on his 2023 season & injuries, it brings up the differences between the styles of coaches like Des and Seibs. Quite the enlightening interview.

Thank goodness the Trbo's (plural) are more club-loyalty aligned than the NRL narrative promotes. These Trbojevic's are a blessing to our club, and if you disagree with that, then fine - I will disagree with you. STRONGLY. We can still be friends but!

However, i'm sure the NRL would be fine with green-lighting the entire Trbojevic clan moving to the Rooters, despite their heritage on the n.beaches. For "unders" of course....

Guess we will see in the coming year whether the Seibs system pulls in people 'on unders' - because the current NRL tolerance of players 'taking unders' combined with some clubs TPA advantages is truly creating an NRL class system. And lets face it - Manly need to re-discover that Silvertail history to ensure we don't wind up on the wrong side of that re-alignment.

Players talk about the potential 'privilege' of playing with guys like Tom/Jake - but will they take unders for that privilege? If we are truly Silvertails in the modern game (versus the silver-feathers of the well-known chicken-type based out of Bondi), then we need to secure both our youth, and our talent recruitment.

What makes the Rooters 'privilege' more attractive, according to John Bateman, than the stereotypical 'Silvertails' brand of privilege and status? Even when we have the best corner of the world to live in as our club-perk? Politis-endorsed paperbags? better TPAs? Thats a Penn problem to service - and they need to get with the Program.

Joey Manu is rumoured to have been able to command 7-figures from 2021 - yet hasn't moved from Rooters (yet), deciding to stay "paid at" at the lower-paid Center paypacket than fullback or 5/8th or half pay.

Being told that the same $$ for Haumole is more than what Liam Martin accepts to stay put. Dylan Edwards being 66% the value of Turbo. Nathan Cleary worth < DCE.

And thats just 1 club (Panthers), with players that choose to live out West that in Northern Beaches??

Wait til you hear what Reece Walsh is on.....or Gutho. What Rooters got Dom Young for... and it ends up being less than players of lower impact at less-privileged clubs like STG, Tigers, Raiders, Knights....and yes, Manly stump up for players with lesser records.

Ultimately we become Everton. West-Ham United. Aston Villa. Teams that may perennially compete in the top-league, but can never win it - unless you're Leicester, 1 outstanding year/premiership aganst impossible odds - and now a relegation story. Punishment for defiance the status-quo. How dare you. Minnows.

Gould is discovering that what worked 5-10 years ago at Panthers isn't fit-for-purpose at the Dogs today. His style of club-structuring is already past used-by - Gould's influence has peaked.

What happens to the legacy clubs that can't pivot to a new NRL era of club-favoured privilege under V'landys? Can the Penns' adjust to this "new world order"? Maybe the club depends on frivilous tokenistic gesture like Vegas or Magic-round to keep the Penns in the black on club ownership - and if so, grats on breaking even.... so happy for you.

Maybe the Seibs System can transcend this over time, and bring us both the juniors and the systemic appeal for players a club needs to occupy a dominant position in the league. Maybe. Maybe not.

Other than home-grown talent, we aren't a destination target for players right now - and as a result we pay Liam Martin money for players like Tuilagi, that are in the early stages of their career.

For truly elite players (ie Kolomatangi) to consider us an option when at the peak of their careers, they will be looking at the clubs' pedigree and performance in the most recent history - the players are here for a good time not a long time. Lets face it: what is the last player we attracted - at the PEAK of their career - that other clubs coveted? If a player like Kolomatangi signs with us from the Souths system....wow, We have the answers we need and lets get the party started. But we won't need him, lets be realistic.

A player like Luke Brooks can be regarded as the biggest signing by our club in the past 10-years. I'm optimistic about what his impact will be. Lets see if he was worthy of a 10-year marquee signing at a club (any club), and if he will be an upgrade on Kieran Foran.

I think there's a big elephant in the room which makes "taking unders" a thing of the past.

Cost of living pressures and inflation. We are on the verge of Depression....you would be stupid to take unders in this current economic climate.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Excellent article AFNN although I suspect most of us here already know a lot of this. I agree with this key point...

Otherwise - WTF are you doing with our club? None of us want this club to be the foundation of your self-promotion. We are not getting the results we are used to as supporters. We don't give a flying FK about your personal, egotistically driven powertrip.

Penn was rich enough to buy a controlling interest in Sea Eagles but doesn't seem interested in bringing other potential benefactors on board. Is he hoarding the club for the sake of his ego, as opposed to using his wealth and influence to get as much support for the cause as possible? Manly fans with eyes open can't help asking this question.

But for me, there should be a free market to encourage competition and improvement.

I'm no economist but isn't 'free market' a fiction? And doesn't it tend towards monopolies? Without regulation and antitrust laws, don't free markets tend to concentrate power in a few dominant firms, thus stifling competition?
Happy to be corrected but I thought it was well established that 'free markets', left unchecked, tend to exacerbate wealth inequality, as those with more resources continue to have the competitive advantage.

 

[Harmless27]

Excellent article AFNN although I suspect most of us here already know a lot of this. I agree with this key point...

Penn was rich enough to buy a controlling interest in Sea Eagles but doesn't seem interested in bringing other potential benefactors on board. Is he hoarding the club for the sake of his ego, as opposed to using his wealth and influence to get as much support for the cause as possible? Manly fans with eyes open can't help asking this question.


I'm no economist but isn't 'free market' a fiction? And doesn't it tend towards monopolies? Without regulation and antitrust laws, don't free markets tend to concentrate power in a few dominant firms, thus stifling competition?
Happy to be corrected but I thought it was well established that 'free markets', left unchecked, tend to exacerbate wealth inequality, as those with more resources continue to have the competitive advantage.

Your economic knowledge is sound - perhaps I chose my words poorly.

I totally understand that some people love the 'anyone can beat anyone on their day' style comp. It makes for good entertainment, and its a better season to watch for those clubs who aren't as wealthy.

But for me, it lends itself to manipulation by the NRL. I have long believed that the NRL have agendas to push, and they are trying to maximise the return on their product by 'sharing around' success somewhat.

For me - I would rather we had domination by some teams, and the other teams have to rise above their faults and improve in order to challenge. I don't like clubs getting a leg up due to their poor practices. But that is just me - i know most people will disagree with it, and that's fine. I just believe in competition without interference....

I feel like the NRL is almost becoming the WWE - more an entertainment product with a narrative than a world-leading contest.

 

[manly al]

Speaking of the corporate side of things and in relation to Manly , still not much attention to those two business type guys who both bought in and purchased some 15 % of the Manly franchise quite some time ago . [ could be some 7 or 8 years now ] . Then to reduce the Penn"s share to some 62 %
Far from a controlling interest level but just recall at the time how their main sentiment in outlaying some quite serious money for their stake was more along the lines of some long standing devotion to the club and not that much interested in any self gain factor. maybe still is their position
Warriors and Titans [ and naturally the Storm, Souths and Broncs ] have a private ownership model and in the Warriors and Titans case at least , does not seem to be too much emphasis on some major benefit for the choice of ownership involvement .
Not too sure how an actual or majority [ or part ] owner can really provide that much advantage in terms of paying or benefiting players more outside of a usual cap arrangement .
Polities at the Roosters seems to be able to incorporate more of a network benefit type advantage , not the only club but a bit more publicized and on a not inconsiderable level . .
Probably not that much different to the A F L comp , U K Football or League or American Gridiron .
Can there be a better type system , probably but beyond the current parameters in the N R L setup in practical terms

 

[AlxFromNthNarra]

Speaking of the corporate side of things and in relation to Manly , still not much attention to those two business type guys who both bought in and purchased some 15 % of the Manly franchise quite some time ago . [ could be some 7 or 8 years now ] . Then to reduce the Penn"s share to some 62 %
Far from a controlling interest level but just recall at the time how their main sentiment in outlaying some quite serious money for their stake was more along the lines of some long standing devotion to the club and not that much interested in any self gain factor. maybe still is their position
Warriors and Titans [ and naturally the Storm, Souths and Broncs ] have a private ownership model and in the Warriors and Titans case at least , does not seem to be too much emphasis on some major benefit for the choice of ownership involvement .
Not too sure how an actual or majority [ or part ] owner can really provide that much advantage in terms of paying or benefiting players more outside of a usual cap arrangement .
Polities at the Roosters seems to be able to incorporate more of a network benefit type advantage , not the only club but a bit more publicized and on a not inconsiderable level . .
Probably not that much different to the A F L comp , U K Football or League or American Gridiron .
Can there be a better type system , probably but beyond the current parameters in the N R L setup in practical terms

Thanks for that input Al.

I honestly don't have a clue about the inner machinations of club ownership-structure - beyond the (potentially inaccurate) Ownership wiki-page on NRL clubs.

Mind you, the "estimated net worth" on this page has me scratching my head (do Redcliffe and Cronulla Leagues really hold a collective value of more than 3 times the other clubs combined? I highly doubt it...) - maybe that whole page is BS.

Based off the ownership info though, Penn is the only indivudal holding 100% ownership of ANY club (most clubs have split-ownership arrangement or are owned in part/full by their Pokies-ridden Leagues clubs). As 100% owner then, we ultimately know where the buck stops - and where the blame resides.

I know this may sound harsh on ol' Scott, but he has not shown anything that puts him in the same ballpark as someone like Rooster's Chairman Nick Politis when it comes to Club management & acumen, and honestly it shows with the results of the club.

The Pride thought-bubble last year was such an example of idealistic short-sightedness, that contributes to my opinion of him as a possibly well-intentioned, likely self-engraciating, but overall naieve operator in clubland. Yes! It would have been a great notch on his belt to champion the Pride cause! Manly as the progressive, inclusive club of unicorns, warm hugs and a better world! But that cause is represented by a rainbow for many reasons - and one is it's not a black & white issue. Scott (or his direct-reports - same-same imo) failed to even consult the bloody room, let alone read it.

Scott is a successful businessman in his own right can't deny him that, but this success comes from a privileged Knoxboy upbringing, moving seamlessly into management/CEO-style roles that have enabled his business-creating opportunity beyond. Kudos for his opportunism resulting in financial success, but Politis is a different animal.

You probably know the immigration history of Politis, and his wealth generation through beginnings in the very blue-collar automative sector blahblah. He now sits on the board of Car Dealership group AP Eagers, where the current model of profitability (in a real-estate market as heated as Sydney) is easy:

(1) Dismantle the Car Dealership structure (conventional car dealerhips are in decline as it is, and occupy far too much prized land) and free up the land
(2) Petition Council/Govt to re-zone the land (helps when you are gifted in handling brown paper....whoops "Golfing" is what I meant... I better not go there! Not trying to defame here!)
(3) Sell rezoned land to property development
(4) ???
(5) Profit

"In 2016, Politis sold the site of his Thomson Ford business in Parramatta to property developer Dyldham for an estimated $70 million." - and he leaves the wreckage of such profits to victims downstream.

Helps when you can morally detach yourself from the outcomes and just focus on the profit. (not implying Politis had any involvement in these outcomes, beyond merely profiting from them).

I don't think Scott isn't that type of person. Maybe thats a good thing, but the mongrel in Politis leads to club outcomes we can only dream of. Outcomes I don't even know he has the mettle to deliver.

So I don't really know what I am asking here - does Scott need to get his hands dirtier? Maybe... but he can certainly 'focus group' his little thought-bubbles like Pride Jersey a little better before going into production, and devote a bit more of that business acumen - that has made him a very wealthy man - to build a slightly better Club strategy to return this club to the heights we once had. Is Seibold the first step on that journey? Ask me this time next year.

Maybe we should have been getting on the bandwagon of the Middle-East club takeover proposed a few years back, reckon some of those Shiekhs could make even Politis look soft and cuddly in a boardroom. And - being completely unemotionally cold here - they certainly wouldn't be cheering 12th-place in a 17-team comp as a step forward (even though I personally feel we did head the right direction this year, we didn't move the bar anywhere near what the Warriors did for example).

I did it again with the essay didn't I Sorry

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Thanks for that input Al.

I honestly don't have a clue about the inner machinations of club ownership-structure - beyond the (potentially inaccurate) Ownership wiki-page on NRL clubs.

Mind you, the "estimated net worth" on this page has me scratching my head (do Redcliffe and Cronulla Leagues really hold a collective value of more than 3 times the other clubs combined? I highly doubt it...) - maybe that whole page is BS.

Based off the ownership info though, Penn is the only indivudal holding 100% ownership of ANY club (most clubs have split-ownership arrangement or are owned in part/full by their Pokies-ridden Leagues clubs). As 100% owner then, we ultimately know where the buck stops - and where the blame resides.

I know this may sound harsh on ol' Scott, but he has not shown anything that puts him in the same ballpark as someone like Rooster's Chairman Nick Politis when it comes to Club management & acumen, and honestly it shows with the results of the club.

The Pride thought-bubble last year was such an example of idealistic short-sightedness, that contributes to my opinion of him as a possibly well-intentioned, likely self-engraciating, but overall naieve operator in clubland. Yes! It would have been a great notch on his belt to champion the Pride cause! Manly as the progressive, inclusive club of unicorns, warm hugs and a better world! But that cause is represented by a rainbow for many reasons - and one is it's not a black & white issue. Scott (or his direct-reports - same-same imo) failed to even consult the bloody room, let alone read it.

Scott is a successful businessman in his own right can't deny him that, but this success comes from a privileged Knoxboy upbringing, moving seamlessly into management/CEO-style roles that have enabled his business-creating opportunity beyond. Kudos for his opportunism resulting in financial success, but Politis is a different animal.

You probably know the immigration history of Politis, and his wealth generation through beginnings in the very blue-collar automative sector blahblah. He now sits on the board of Car Dealership group AP Eagers, where the current model of profitability (in a real-estate market as heated as Sydney) is easy:

(1) Dismantle the Car Dealership structure (conventional car dealerhips are in decline as it is, and occupy far too much prized land) and free up the land
(2) Petition Council/Govt to re-zone the land (helps when you are gifted in handling brown paper....whoops "Golfing" is what I meant... I better not go there! Not trying to defame here!)
(3) Sell rezoned land to property development
(4) ???
(5) Profit

"In 2016, Politis sold the site of his Thomson Ford business in Parramatta to property developer Dyldham for an estimated $70 million." - and he leaves the wreckage of such profits to victims downstream.

Helps when you can morally detach yourself from the outcomes and just focus on the profit. (not implying Politis had any involvement in these outcomes, beyond merely profiting from them).

I don't think Scott isn't that type of person. Maybe thats a good thing, but the mongrel in Politis leads to club outcomes we can only dream of. Outcomes I don't even know he has the mettle to deliver.

So I don't really know what I am asking here - does Scott need to get his hands dirtier? Maybe... but he can certainly 'focus group' his little thought-bubbles like Pride Jersey a little better before going into production, and devote a bit more of that business acumen - that has made him a very wealthy man - to build a slightly better Club strategy to return this club to the heights we once had. Is Seibold the first step on that journey? Ask me this time next year.

Maybe we should have been getting on the bandwagon of the Middle-East club takeover proposed a few years back, reckon some of those Shiekhs could make even Politis look soft and cuddly in a boardroom. And - being completely unemotionally cold here - they certainly wouldn't be cheering 12th-place in a 17-team comp as a step forward (even though I personally feel we did head the right direction this year, we didn't move the bar anywhere near what the Warriors did for example).

I did it again with the essay didn't I Sorry

I think a Barcelona FC structure is the way. Have different sport codes play under the Sea Eagles banner and cross promote the brand that way .Probably not easy though.

 

[XV-1]

Players taking Unders to stay at Manly.

THAT is what I crave to read about our club again. It's unfair, it's against the spirit of the game - but I love Manly and will give them certain exceptions in pursuit of success.

But we don't demand success in the same way anymore...do we? So.....what is the alternative? We don't collect spoons yet.... but we ARE an... Also. Ran. Club. In the modern era anyway

Looking at you Scotty (Penn) - how are you promoting our club's privilege above your own? Vegas? Maybe. Let's see if Hugh Jackman decides to Gladiator it out with Rusty Crowe. It could be our greatest attention-seeking win - or not.

And whilst on Penn, what are you actually going to do, other than milk the new-found US cow for your own benefit? Please. Please....prove me wrong. I would relish you to show us up here. Turn the Vegas showase into a club-benefitting outcome, rather than some personally reinforcing ego hit.

Otherwise - WTF are you doing with our club? None of us want this club to be the foundation of your self-promotion. We are not getting the results we are used to as supporters. We don't give a flying FK about your personal, egotistically driven powertrip.

===========================

This is meant as a SERIOUS THREAD. The club management is seemingly starting to accept a mid-table mediocrity that is an acceptance of defeat in the new NRL era.

We can either be one of the 'hero clubs' that gets the league leg-up, or we become a club where mediocrity governs our position - as the NRL re-defines its landscape under V'Landys.

Fool yourself all you want - this is the cut-throat era of NRL, and its winner takes all. NEWSFLASH - we aren't the 'winners' of the 70-90's and we haven't been for a long time now. Not since V'Landys got involved anyway. We need to differentiate against the status-quo and recreate our 21st-century identity.

We aren't Silvertails in pracitice anymore, not in a way we can bank on, with a manner of complacency.

======================

I'm always reading this about players moving-to/staying-with other clubs like Rooters and Penrith. For "Unders"

Just this is the last week alone:

• John Bateman prepared to take unders to join Roosters and break his 4-year contract at Tigers - after 1 year....totally normal of course.
• Jarome Luai told he won't get more than (600-650k) to stay with Panthers, when market-value he could fetch 900k - but wtf would the SMH know - he will stay at Panthers and every media outlet will justify this decision as an understandable move, a cultural fit - even if Penrith win a 3rd premiership on the trot, the competition is closer than ever!

Pity, that when Manly tried it in the past - like with Gifty - its called out as being against the rules/spirit of the game and vetoed by the NRL (well....maybe it was just that twat Greenberg).

Gifty was Manly. Bleeds Manly. Listen to Jake talk about him at his 200th. The guy IS FKN MANLY. It was beatiful to hear.

Yet the NRL saw Gifty's retention as an imbalance. The NRL (at the time) were like.... yeah....nah mate. Off to Souths with ya. Even tho Brett is lame for a season and Matai's (seriously godly) shoulders are shot.....nup. Gifty eyeballed me after the 2011 GF, and that is direspectful (Todd.....probably).

However, now we as a collective NRL supporter-base are cool with this 'unders' idea a few years later? Why? What happened? Don't people see where this leads?

Seems when other teams do this nowadays - retention-by-loyalty-or-culture schtick - its kinda accepted as fair play. And the players doing this are empathised with. What is best for their careers blah blah blah - even if they break a 4-year contract, and crush the supporters' dreams at the same time (Bateman).

I am surely not the only one who has a problem with this.

If we continue this trend then we entrench an "English Premier League" type of privilege in which some clubs always compete for glory. Hello Rooters (Manchester United), Panthers (Manchester City), Broncos (Liverpool), Souths (Russell-Crowe-by-Tyne) and Storm (Arsenal) as the main offenders - and other clubs can burn in the mediocrity bloodbath. When does relegation kick-in plzz?

From Manly's perspective, it would be nice to retain talented juniors like Kaeo. We showed this year that depth players get a run - we rarely escape the injury bogeyman it seems.

Is Kaeo the perfect player? Perhaps not.... but we developed him, trained him, gave him (admittedly limited) opportunity - and now he potentially goes to open market, coz we have a few players (who may get injured) ahead in the pecking-order and we can't afford him? a player with 12 starting games to his record?

Same with the Fainus' (I get their manager played the game), to get a bloated deal from the Tigers, not long after securing a bloated deal with Manly for a 1st-grade contract (when in reggies) worth a LOT. Was that the Fulton switcheroo, or forward-loading brilliance on the part of Scott Fulton/Tigers?.... we'll see soon enough i'm sure. The Storm would have got them at half the price if they were keen i bet.

I just hope the "Seibold system" at Manly returns us to a place which players crave to operate in. Listening to an interview/podcast with Turbo recently on his 2023 season & injuries, it brings up the differences between the styles of coaches like Des and Seibs. Quite the enlightening interview.

Thank goodness the Trbo's (plural) are more club-loyalty aligned than the NRL narrative promotes. These Trbojevic's are a blessing to our club, and if you disagree with that, then fine - I will disagree with you. STRONGLY. We can still be friends but!

However, i'm sure the NRL would be fine with green-lighting the entire Trbojevic clan moving to the Rooters, despite their heritage on the n.beaches. For "unders" of course....

Guess we will see in the coming year whether the Seibs system pulls in people 'on unders' - because the current NRL tolerance of players 'taking unders' combined with some clubs TPA advantages is truly creating an NRL class system. And lets face it - Manly need to re-discover that Silvertail history to ensure we don't wind up on the wrong side of that re-alignment.

Players talk about the potential 'privilege' of playing with guys like Tom/Jake - but will they take unders for that privilege? If we are truly Silvertails in the modern game (versus the silver-feathers of the well-known chicken-type based out of Bondi), then we need to secure both our youth, and our talent recruitment.

What makes the Rooters 'privilege' more attractive, according to John Bateman, than the stereotypical 'Silvertails' brand of privilege and status? Even when we have the best corner of the world to live in as our club-perk? Politis-endorsed paperbags? better TPAs? Thats a Penn problem to service - and they need to get with the Program.

Joey Manu is rumoured to have been able to command 7-figures from 2021 - yet hasn't moved from Rooters (yet), deciding to stay "paid at" at the lower-paid Center paypacket than fullback or 5/8th or half pay.

Being told that the same $$ for Haumole is more than what Liam Martin accepts to stay put. Dylan Edwards being 66% the value of Turbo. Nathan Cleary worth < DCE.

And thats just 1 club (Panthers), with players that choose to live out West that in Northern Beaches??

Wait til you hear what Reece Walsh is on.....or Gutho. What Rooters got Dom Young for... and it ends up being less than players of lower impact at less-privileged clubs like STG, Tigers, Raiders, Knights....and yes, Manly stump up for players with lesser records.

Ultimately we become Everton. West-Ham United. Aston Villa. Teams that may perennially compete in the top-league, but can never win it - unless you're Leicester, 1 outstanding year/premiership aganst impossible odds - and now a relegation story. Punishment for defiance the status-quo. How dare you. Minnows.

Gould is discovering that what worked 5-10 years ago at Panthers isn't fit-for-purpose at the Dogs today. His style of club-structuring is already past used-by - Gould's influence has peaked.

What happens to the legacy clubs that can't pivot to a new NRL era of club-favoured privilege under V'landys? Can the Penns' adjust to this "new world order"? Maybe the club depends on frivilous tokenistic gesture like Vegas or Magic-round to keep the Penns in the black on club ownership - and if so, grats on breaking even.... so happy for you.

Maybe the Seibs System can transcend this over time, and bring us both the juniors and the systemic appeal for players a club needs to occupy a dominant position in the league. Maybe. Maybe not.

Other than home-grown talent, we aren't a destination target for players right now - and as a result we pay Liam Martin money for players like Tuilagi, that are in the early stages of their career.

For truly elite players (ie Kolomatangi) to consider us an option when at the peak of their careers, they will be looking at the clubs' pedigree and performance in the most recent history - the players are here for a good time not a long time. Lets face it: what is the last player we attracted - at the PEAK of their career - that other clubs coveted? If a player like Kolomatangi signs with us from the Souths system....wow, We have the answers we need and lets get the party started. But we won't need him, lets be realistic.

A player like Luke Brooks can be regarded as the biggest signing by our club in the past 10-years. I'm optimistic about what his impact will be. Lets see if he was worthy of a 10-year marquee signing at a club (any club), and if he will be an upgrade on Kieran Foran.

Dylan Edwards takes unders to sign a 4 year extension at 850k per year.
Turbo takes unders at 1.2mill and Jake at 950k.
WTF?

 

[HK_Eagle]

Dylan Edwards takes unders to sign a 4 year extension at 850k per year.
Turbo takes unders at 1.2mill and Jake at 950k.
WTF?

Turbo thought "unders" meant playing "under half a season".

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

Turbo thought "unders" meant playing "under half a season".

Sad and potentially true.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Speaking of the very lopsided EPL, I remember seeing a reporter talking to Leicester fans turning up to the last (or second last) game of the year of the 15/16 season - if they won that game then they'd win the comp. The one person that stood out was this quietly-spoken bloke who said "I've been following Leicester for over 50 years and I'd really like to see them win it... just once..." That is what we'll get to with the NRL if we're not careful with a fixed top four and one of the teams making up the numbers (that includes Manly) taking the prize once every 25 years...

Thats a long bow to draw. Leicester winning the EPL, is like if a local A-Grade team (ie grade below reserve grade) won the NRL Premiership.

 

[The Who]

Wayne Bennett has just released another book, penned by Andrew Webster. From an extract it details his deal to join Easts as coach. Apart from the salary, which was around $850,000 a season, Politis indicated that a sweetener could be a Sydney waterfront apartment . . .
How is Manly -- or almost any of the other NRL clubs -- going to compete with a benefactor so willing to offer such generous incentives? I wonder where Dom Young will be living when he turns out for Easts next season?
Surely this example explains why Easts' players laughingly "take unders".

 

[Ryan]

Don't discount Manly's pulling power guys:

• Amazing place to live
• Pretty settled roster (lower turnover)
• Not sure about others opinions, but even despite a poor season, it seems the playing group are happy - look at the tries to Gordie and Jake in that last round !
• It wasn't so long ago our players literally were taking paycuts to remain and stay together (and I witnessed an actual contract doing this)

I don't think we are far off this either.

 

[Scorpio]

Some sports team ownership anecdotes.

Years ago, David Beckham took up an option to buy a significant stake in a newly created Inter Miami team for $25 million. I have read that the valuation of that team is now expected to exceed $1.5 billion in the next year.

Likewise, Michael Jordan bought a majority stake in the Charlotte Hornets for $275 million in 2010. Since then, they've made the playoffs only twice, but he sold it earlier this for a reported $3 billion.

There are only 17 NRL teams and it's optimistic to think there will be more than 18 in the foreseeable future. So, if you owned an NRL team, you'd probably hold onto that investment until it is worth many times the price you paid for it before even thinking of selling.

 

[Ryan]

Some sports team ownership anecdotes.

Years ago, David Beckham took up an option to buy a significant stake in a newly created Inter Miami team for $25 million. I have read that the valuation of that team is now expected to exceed $1.5 billion in the next year.

Likewise, Michael Jordan bought a majority stake in the Charlotte Hornets for $275 million in 2010. Since then, they've made the playoffs only twice, but he sold it earlier this for a reported $3 billion.

There are only 17 NRL teams and it's optimistic to think there will be more than 18 in the foreseeable future. So, if you owned an NRL team, you'd probably hold onto that investment until it is worth many times the price you paid for it before even thinking of selling.

Scalability though my friend. Not sure how old this article is, but check this out (for estimated net worth):

List of NRL club owners - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org