TC's JT Discussion Thread

[maxta]

Thurston has all the attributes other halves can only dream of.
Early in his career, he did seem to have a chance of being that flamboyant opportunist who could overplay his hand at times.
These last few years he has added the final touches by controlling his game, often dominating to a point he sets the tempo & the style the entire game is played.
He can win in a high scoring shootout producing attacking flair & shut down a game, with his kicking game & leadership taking control of the outcome.
His running game, passing options & timing, general kicking, goal kick & the ability to frequently bob up both sides of the ruck, when opportunity raises its head is 2nd to none, plus above all, is the ultimate competitor.
Foran at his best was a tough, dogged player with also amazing competitive abilities - but only has a drop of Thurston's skills & in time when Thurston collects a likely Immortals stature - Foran will be simply happy to claim he competed at the highest level against Thurston.
There is little doubt as great as Manly's recent record, with the addition of Thurston it would have been clearly better...in saying that, Foran certainly played his part in much of the Seaeagles dominant successful times.

 

[Clay]

Thurston is such a great player, I often watch Cowboys games just to see him play.

I'm still frustrated he got the Churchill wasn't even in the top 5 on the field, the Broncos shut him down. The coaching staff should really take note from that game

 

[Red Pill]

What are you on about i am clearly stating "having Thurston in our mix and removing one of the halves" we would not perform as well--- even putting Foran at Centre to accommodate Thurston in the halves Manly would go backwards also.

Where in the world do you get the idea of Lyon out Williame at centre?

I don't get your angle mate, the clear original point was to make it be known in my opinion the lack of forward grunt and depth at Manly for the last few years Thurston's style would not compliment or improve the side at all---Manly would have performed worse.

The best way to illustrate the quality of our back-line and halves is the 2013 season, our forward pack was not up to GF standard but our back-line and halved got us to the GF and 20 or so mins from taking it out---the halves executed plays even when the go forward at times lacked punch.

The amount of effort the back-line and halves exhausted throughout the 2013 year and the ability of the young halves to make do with what we had is something above what Thurston is capable of.

Thurston will be an immortal after he retires. Gee according to you he must be one of the most over rated players of all time. As a player the only thing I do not like about Thurston is that he does not play for Manly.

 

[Lyonstomenzies]

Thurston is such a great player, I often watch Cowboys games just to see him play.

I'm still frustrated he got the Churchill wasn't even in the top 5 on the field, the Broncos shut him down. The coaching staff should really take note from that game

Agreed he did not deserve the CC. He had numerous chances to close the game and couldn't come up with the goods, until he was gifted a field goal from in front. He didn't even strike it cleanly.

 

[Rex]

What are you on about i am clearly stating "having Thurston in our mix and removing one of the halves" we would not perform as well--- even putting Foran at Centre to accommodate Thurston in the halves Manly would go backwards also.

Where in the world do you get the idea of Lyon out Williame at centre?

If you take the time to actually read the postings rather than knee jerking, TC, you will see how you became confused.

You made the outrageous claim that Manly would have gone worse this year if Thurston had been added to our roster. Wiliame had 5 games in the top grade this year. Your claim therefore means that we would have gone worse, for example if we'd added Thurston to the backline in those 5 games rather than playing Wiliame. I suggested moving Foran (when fit) to centre would allow Thurston to slot into 5/8th in these games. And that's why I suggested if you could convince anyone with football expertise that your plan is better than playing Thurston, that you should become player manager for Wiliame.

 

[Technical Coach]

If you just say it more succinctly people will get it TC. I will have a go for you.

'Jonothan Thurston doesn't look like a player I would be able to computer model I don't understand how he throws non spiral passes and hits attacking players in holes'

'I can't understand how people who play the game and have payed the game rate him. It does not compute - is there something more to this rugby league you humans are so fascinated with that eludes my technical observations, I though I was doing so well passing as a human analyst '

Your master should have let you lace up the boots

Way back in one of my original posts in relation to Thurston in this thread

"Thurston at Manly behind OUR PACK would have seen Manly drop out of the 8 more so than just last year."

If that is not clear enough to readers like you and others not much more i can do.

I clearly stated the parts of his game that are no better than others and his performance history to back my opinon in detail---doesn't make it right but i state it and back my comments up with reasons why (unlike many here who just reply "oh but other legends and players think he is great so he must be"

1) Thurstons track record and performances in Finals (up to this year), Origin (when he had to take control when other players were out) and Internationals is nothing to write home about when you analyze it in detail. Thurstons composure under pressure has for the most part been poor at club level finals time. (and his behaviour after losses with conspiracy theories lacks any class)

2) His passing game is nothing special but adequate, DCE and Foran are both better passes of the ball.

3) Kicking game is adequate nothing great, DCE has him covered in general play kicking.

4)Playing tough and never giving up attitude i would say due to length of time in the game and his consistency in this element is better than Foran and DCE. In saying that both Foran and DCE have both showed the same level and even in some respects more toughness since starting out compared to Thurston.

5) Foran 2 GF appearances before the age of 23 along with international success and evening captaining his country at a young age. DCE 2 GF's in the same time frame and age bracket, made Origin and an international.

6) Consistency in getting the club into the top 4 is not great (almost reaching the spoon on two occasions)----you can use every excuse from location to level of playing squad talent around--- in the end great players have better records and create consistency. Under Foran and DCE as our halves from 2009 and 2011(DCE) there has been a better record in making finals, top 4 and top 8 compared to Thurston.

 

[Technical Coach]

If you take the time to actually read the postings rather than knee jerking, TC, you will see how you became confused.

You made the outrageous claim that Manly would have gone worse this year if Thurston had been added to our roster. Wiliame had 5 games in the top grade this year. Your claim therefore means that we would have gone worse, for example if we'd added Thurston to the backline in those 5 games rather than playing Wiliame. I suggested moving Foran (when fit) to centre would allow Thurston to slot into 5/8th in these games. And that's why I suggested if you could convince anyone with football expertise that your plan is better than playing Thurston, that you should become player manager for Wiliame.

Manly would go worse for the last few years and even limited to just "last year" with "our forward pack" if Thurston replaced either one of our halves.

Rex stop chopping and changing the squad to suit, it was all about having Thurston in the halves ---replacing either one of our halves (everything else in terms of playing personnel and position remains the same) and seeing a better performance as a result of this change that i disagree with.(Even limiting it to removing Foran which is what most people wish in this regard due to his attitude)

You are the one who keeps chopping and changing for no point or advancement in the debate whatsoever so i'm done replying in this thread as i think your agenda is to go around circles and drag everyone along with you for the ride.

Look at Nth Qlds NRL ladder record since 2005 and tell me just having Thurston would improve the results over what Foran has achieved since 2009 and DCE 2011.

 

[Rex]

Look at Nth Qlds NRL ladder record since 2005 and tell me just having Thurston would improve the results over what Foran has achieved since 2009 and DCE 2011.

Now you've chopped and changed again TC.

Now you're comparing value for money. A totally different question to who's the best. Which do you want to talk about?

Thurston over that period was hugely more expensive than Foz and DCE. Purchase Thurston at those values and you're left with far less money for support players. You saw what happened to Manly when Foz & DCE started commanding bigger dollars. We couldn't afford forwards to support them. And ultimately we became uncompetitive because of that.

 

[Bearfax]

Look I've got to say guys we must show total respect for T.C.s opinion about Thurston. Just because he's totally wrong shouldnt diminish the respect we have for that opinion.

 

[IQofalimabean]

I think Cooper cronk is a better halfback than Thurston. QLD lack the kick meters with Thurston being the main kicking option.

 

[Top End Eagle]

I remember watching him pick blokes up and dump them when he first moved to the cows. Thurston looked like some kind of serpent but he knew where and when to be. He is the best player I have seen since Andrew johns. And it pains me to say it but smith is the next. They are both future immortals. They have both proven themselves.

Killer doesn't have that aura and probably deflects it but he is third in line in the past ten years. These are all small blokes whose brain and football nouse wins them games. I can't bring myself to rate slater.

 

[Rex]

Look I've got to say guys we must show total respect for T.C.s opinion about Thurston. Just because he's totally wrong shouldnt diminish the respect we have for that opinion.

It doesn't really matter whether opinions are right or wrong. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. So TC is entitled to have mine.

 

[Chip and Chase]

Thurston is talented but I personally wouldn't put him in same class as Johns. I'm not sure he will become an immortal, he isn't that much better than some of his peers to warrant that sort of honour. IMO he doesn't deliver the clutch plays, he tightens up when the true pressure is on him at club level. He shines at origin and international level because he has great organisers and cool heads around him like Cronk and smith. That allows him to just do his thing without the pressure of delivering all the gold. Johns thrived in those situations, Thurston doesn't.

 

[Technical Coach]

Now you've chopped and changed again TC.

Now you're comparing value for money. A totally different question to who's the best. Which do you want to talk about?

Thurston over that period was hugely more expensive than Foz and DCE. Purchase Thurston at those values and you're left with far less money for support players. You saw what happened to Manly when Foz & DCE started commanding bigger dollars. We couldn't afford forwards to support them. And ultimately we became uncompetitive because of that.

Never stated who is the best, i stated who is in my "opinion" the better player/players, (and more importantly the better type/style of player that would suit Manly in the last few years) the reasons why i feels so strongly about my views and that Thurston's limited skill-set would not improve Manly's performances last year or for several years in fact going backwards due to a lack of go forward grunt he requires.

My reply has zero to do with value for money---did you see any figures in my replies---NO.
Foran and DCE along with other players have attained more success at club level in their limited years compared to the entirety of Thurston's career all at an earlier age.

Foran has been apart of greater international success and contributed to NZ's rise along with having a more successful club career---in saying that Thurston does not have an international backline at club level for the most part of his career---- i still feel Foran's performances behind a very average forward pack over the years along with DCE has been amazing while Thurston does not shine under such a squad.

Thurston has been apart of Australia's decline(not saying the sole contributor or main reason) his so called greatness is not making up for a lack of forward grunt depth. DCE has made origin and international level but has had limited opportunities and little impact which still might be the case into the future.

Great players elevate other players into internationals and tend to create prolonged consistent success at a club, their mere presence is enough to convince many other players to stay, riding the success wave (even a dynasty), at 32 i don't see it happening under Thurston unless he can keep the Cowboys in the top 4 for the next 3-4 years then he might be entitled to some legendary status.

Look at all the great clubs over the last say 30-35 years Canberra,Bronco's, Parramatta, Manly, Melbourne,Newcastle and the Bulldogs, even the Roosters with Fittler-----at their peaks look at the consistency of success and how the great players build other players up and keep them at the club.

 

[Bearfax]

Sorry TC I dont agree with your interpretation. Foran has been playing for a top league side, Thurston, without his presence, an also ran team. Thurston is The Cows major player by a long stretch. Foran was never Manly's top player.

 

[maxta]

I have little doubt if you were asking players from any NRL team who they would prefer at 5/8, close to 100% would nominate Thurston & based on the past 2 seasons, would likely name 5 other players before Forans name came up.
But again, its interesting to have various opinions on here, be boring without some friendly debate.

 

[Rex]

Never stated who is the best, i stated who is in my "opinion" the better player/players, (and more importantly the better type/style of player that would suit Manly in the last few years) the reasons why i feels so strongly about my views and that Thurston's limited skill-set would not improve Manly's performances last year or for several years in fact going backwards due to a lack of go forward grunt he requires.

My reply has zero to do with value for money---did you see any figures in my replies---NO.
Foran and DCE along with other players have attained more success at club level in their limited years compared to the entirety of Thurston's career all at an earlier age.

Foran has been apart of greater international success and contributed to NZ's rise along with having a more successful club career---in saying that Thurston does not have an international backline at club level for the most part of his career---- i still feel Foran's performances behind a very average forward pack over the years along with DCE has been amazing while Thurston does not shine under such a squad.

Thurston has been apart of Australia's decline(not saying the sole contributor or main reason) his so called greatness is not making up for a lack of forward grunt depth. DCE has made origin and international level but has had limited opportunities and little impact which still might be the case into the future.

Great players elevate other players into internationals and tend to create prolonged consistent success at a club, their mere presence is enough to convince many other players to stay, riding the success wave (even a dynasty), at 32 i don't see it happening under Thurston unless he can keep the Cowboys in the top 4 for the next 3-4 years then he might be entitled to some legendary status.

Look at all the great clubs over the last say 30-35 years Canberra,Bronco's, Parramatta, Manly, Melbourne,Newcastle and the Bulldogs, even the Roosters with Fittler-----at their peaks look at the consistency of success and how the great players build other players up and keep them at the club.

Following your logic Foran is a better player than DCE. DCE has played in the halves alongside the most dominant origin team in history, and has a strike rate of none from 3. Thurston has won every origin series bar one. By your logic DCE should give the game away.

 

[Technical Coach]

Sorry TC I dont agree with your interpretation. Foran has been playing for a top league side, Thurston, without his presence, an also ran team. Thurston is The Cows major player by a long stretch. Foran was never Manly's top player.

Have no issue with this point of view and have addressed this in a previous post, in the end great players either bring out the class in other players so the team develops into a squad full of rep players or attracts rep players.

Which then leads to always having the issue of "well class half X has played with a squad full of rep/international players" and benefited no matter what.

 

[Technical Coach]

Following your logic Foran is a better player than DCE. DCE has played in the halves alongside the most dominant origin team in history, and has a strike rate of none from 3. Thurston has won every origin series bar one. By your logic DCE should give the game away.

My replies are not based on " who is the better player" responses it is who would suit Manly better combined with past history performance showing Thurston in a squad does not automatically guarantee results.

A lack of success even with big names for Australia, the loss of certain players at Origin and not performing, also not bringing up players at club level to rep status like other past greats have been able to do.

My point form analysis on past success was not about determining who is the better player it is to show that Thurston's presence in a squad does not show the success levels of a great player by the lack of consistent success.

 

[Technical Coach]

I have little doubt if you were asking players from any NRL team who they would prefer at 5/8, close to 100% would nominate Thurston & based on the past 2 seasons, would likely name 5 other players before Forans name came up.
But again, its interesting to have various opinions on here, be boring without some friendly debate.

I have little doubt if you ask every player in the Manly squad who they would prefer (which is all that matters in this debate) they would pick Foran over Thurston close to 100% of the time. (how often did Foran receive players player award at Manly shows you how well he is regarded---even Turbo in his limited time playing in 1st grade specifically mentioned Foran when he could of said others at Manly)

The point I'm making is who would best suit Manly, (along with showing i feel Thurston is over-rated as a side point)

Look at this way if age was not an issue would you pick Thurston over Cliff Lyons in wanting to build a successful consistent performing "NRL Club" i know who i would choose, does not necessarily mean the better player but the player best suited at club level to generate consistent performances. (i would also pick Fittler over Thurston, Lockyer over Thurston, Kenny over Thurston and many others that will be made fun of because i know these players work well at NRL level)

I would pick Thurston over L.Daley though as Daley is over-rated in my books just to give balance and Thurston over Cliff Lyons at Origin level.

If Origin was played over an entire season i would pick Lyons over Thurston do you see what i am getting at. Cliff Lyons looked more adlib than he really was, he played what was in front of him yes but there was still structure at work and players needing time to get used to playing with Cliffy.