Another ordinary preseason

[Bandit]

This isn't the entirely appropriate forum, but what I can't stand is every Australian Not paying their fair share (when it comes to taxation).

All we want, is everyone paying a fair share - that's all.

What we do not want, is people cheating the system, legitimate or otherwise.

If you made $10 million last year, don't use fancy accounting techniques to pay $10,000 in tax, when half a million other aussie's earnt $50,000 and each paid $15,000 in tax, for the year.

We just want to be bloody fair and all contribute.

 

[Peter C]

Here is an interesting article. Be sure to read it through to the end.

Mining industry receives billions of dollars in state subsidies: report
AM By Simon Frazer, Rachael Brown and staff
Updated 24 Jun 2014, 4:34pmTue 24 Jun 2014, 4:34pm


The astounding profitability of mining has helped drive Australia's prosperity over the past decade, but a report released today shows the sector has also been a major recipient of state government largesse.

While the states' coffers are boosted by royalties, analysis by the Australia Institute think tank shows that, in some cases, well over half of that money is handed straight back through direct and indirect grants.

The Australia Institute has pored over the past six budgets from each state and territory, finding at least $17.6 billion worth of assistance for the mining sector.

<snip>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/mining-industry-receives-billions-of-dollars-in-state-subsidies/5545714

The AI have been trying this tact for a few years now, without understanding what the actual assistance means, or why it's applied (and if they know, they conveniently fail to make the point in their releases).

To punch some holes in the basics of their data;

$3.6 billion (about 20 per cent) isn’t associated with the mining and resources sector and “appear(s) to have been incorrectly categorised”.
$3.7 billion (about 21 per cent) is general government expenditure “socialised across all sectors of the economy or subject to fees and charges” and therefore “there isn’t any explicit or inherent subsidy”.
$10.3 billion (about 59 per cent) is government investment in infrastructure/services via Public Trading Enterprises which are legally bound to charge commercial rates for their use. The cost of industry’s use is therefore “fully recoverable” and “there is no subsidy”.
On the Australia Institute’s claim that government funds invested in Public Trading Enterprises could be better spent on government services such as health and education, the report explains that each is supported by separate funding sources and “capital expenditure in one sector is not at the expense of capital expenditure in the other sector” and that “far from being a major receiver of State funds, the mining and resources sector is actually a substantial source of State and Territory revenues”.

There are no doubt some subsidies provided to mining, that are not warranted. But the AI's aggressive overreach on the subject leaves them looking stupid, once the broader facts are applied. Perhaps if they stuck to the basics (and perhaps got somebody with some actual knowledge on the finances involved), we'd have a decent discussion on this matter.

As it is, the monies stated are simply not true.

The flaw in your argument is that our industries, be they mining manufacturing, agriculture or other, are not 'our' industries. They are simply industries operating within this country, but the wealth generated is siphoned off into the pockets of private owners both local and foreign.

The workers get a wage, that is until they are laid off due to 'restructuring' or other 'adjustments'. At that point they become the unemployed and won't even be entitled to the dole any more, effectively being punished for not having a job which hardly seems fair when the jobs do not exist.

Corruption reigns at every level, from parliament down to trade unions, yet you would have us believe the system is working just fine? Well it's obviously working fine for the rich, but what about the rest of the world's population?

Hmmm, without the "rich" to employ people we would all be unemployed. The challenge for those of us who are not "rich" is to work hard and save enough to then risk everything trying to become "rich."

Otherwise we could be satisfied with being rich in other ways and enjoying life.

You hit the nail right on the head Ralphie.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Even some of your points veer into the false and misleading, re: dole, for example.

"People under 30 who become unemployed will have to wait six months to be eligible for Newstart, and will only be able to claim it for six months before the benefit is cut for another six months. This six-month cycle of getting benefits cut and returned will continue until someone gets a job or turns 30.
Job seekers under 30 will also have to do 25 hours per week on a work for the dole scheme while receiving benefits"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-13/budget-winners-and-losers/5433178

Hmmm, without the "rich" to employ people we would all be unemployed.

Bingo. Yes, the bourgeoisie hold the whip hand and have done so ever since the advent of industrialisation. They control the means of production and if you don't like the job conditions they offer you can piss off and they'll hire someone else from the vast pool of unemployed. Or better yet, take their factories off-shore where third world workers can be paid even less. That's how it is and how it must always be. Well, at least while ever people are afraid to call a spade a spade…

 

[mozgrame]

If your employee does not have a good employment record, takes too many sickies, constantly under performs, has sticky fingers, is rude or arrogant to customers, refuses to take part in ongoing training, shows no respect for company assets etc, they should be terminated. You're running a business FFS.

Small businesses run Australia. They are the biggest employer of Australian workers. Forget multi national conglomerates. I am all for any Government that supports small business. I own several small businesses and have had the same employees for the last 10 years. Why? Because you don't sack good workers! That would be dumb.

How does Newstart work?? Read here. The wait for benefit payments varies greatly, depending on your termination package. It's not a six month wait in every case. Far from it. It's usually a week.

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/services/centrelink/newstart-allowance

 

[Ralphie]

Even some of your points veer into the false and misleading, re: dole, for example.

"People under 30 who become unemployed will have to wait six months to be eligible for Newstart, and will only be able to claim it for six months before the benefit is cut for another six months. This six-month cycle of getting benefits cut and returned will continue until someone gets a job or turns 30.
Job seekers under 30 will also have to do 25 hours per week on a work for the dole scheme while receiving benefits"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-13/budget-winners-and-losers/5433178

Hmmm, without the "rich" to employ people we would all be unemployed.

Bingo. Yes, the bourgeoisie hold the whip hand and have done so ever since the advent of industrialisation. They control the means of production and if you don't like the job conditions they offer you can piss off and they'll hire someone else from the vast pool of unemployed. Or better yet, take their factories off-shore where third world workers can be paid even less. That's how it is and how it must always be. Well, at least while ever people are afraid to call a spade a spade…

Too right SER8, but rather than just whining about that spade why don't you do like I and others have done, risk everything, put your house on the line, be the very very last in line to get paid and start your own business so you don't have to be locked in servitude.

The power is in your hands. If you don't have the nads to do that then please stop whining about those awful spades.

 

[mozgrame]

Even some of your points veer into the false and misleading, re: dole, for example.

"People under 30 who become unemployed will have to wait six months to be eligible for Newstart, and will only be able to claim it for six months before the benefit is cut for another six months. This six-month cycle of getting benefits cut and returned will continue until someone gets a job or turns 30.
Job seekers under 30 will also have to do 25 hours per week on a work for the dole scheme while receiving benefits"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-13/budget-winners-and-losers/5433178

Hmmm, without the "rich" to employ people we would all be unemployed.

Bingo. Yes, the bourgeoisie hold the whip hand and have done so ever since the advent of industrialisation. They control the means of production and if you don't like the job conditions they offer you can piss off and they'll hire someone else from the vast pool of unemployed. Or better yet, take their factories off-shore where third world workers can be paid even less. That's how it is and how it must always be. Well, at least while ever people are afraid to call a spade a spade…

Too right SER8, but rather than just whining about that spade why don't you do like I and others have done, risk everything, put your house on the line, be the very very last in line to get paid and start your own business so you don't have to be locked in servitude.

The power is in your hands. If you don't have the nads to do that then please stop whining about those awful spades.

Very, very well put @Ralphie Some people are happy to whinge and snipe at the way things are, when they are truly the only ones that can change it.

I guess, at the end of the day, it's much safer and easier to remain in servitude and hate it than it is to break free, work 12 to 14 hours a day for nothing until you build your business to the level you can start to relax a little. This can take years.

I laugh at people that tell me it's ok for me, I work for myself. What a joke! Everything stops with you if you're a business owner. And don't for a minute think that small business owners get a break from the tax man either. Then there are the staff wages, sick pay, holiday pay with leave loading, another wage to cover the holidaying staff member, insurances, public liability, sunsuper, vehicle maintenance, running costs, rego and insurances, machinery maintenance and consumables etc.

You know where all the money for those things come from? The business bank account. So sadly, I will have to postpone the jet purchase and buy another boat I guess (I wish)

Still, it's better than working for someone else.

 

[Hamster Huey]

Even some of your points veer into the false and misleading, re: dole, for example.

"People under 30 who become unemployed will have to wait six months to be eligible for Newstart, and will only be able to claim it for six months before the benefit is cut for another six months. This six-month cycle of getting benefits cut and returned will continue until someone gets a job or turns 30.
Job seekers under 30 will also have to do 25 hours per week on a work for the dole scheme while receiving benefits"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-13/budget-winners-and-losers/5433178

I'd sooner rely on the official government information, than an ABC post-budget breakdown from six months ago. Feel free to show me the actual rules in place that give the indication a six month wait is the normal.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Too right SER8, but rather than just whining about that spade why don't you do like I and others have done, risk everything, put your house on the line, be the very very last in line to get paid and start your own business so you don't have to be locked in servitude.

The power is in your hands. If you don't have the nads to do that then please stop whining about those awful spades.

What whining? Merely statement of fact. All the whining is from you and mozgrane about how hard it is to run your own business.
And it is beyond foolish to preach, 'Hey guys the way to freedom is over here, start your own business you'll be free from servitude'. Do you have any idea how many businesses fail within the first 2 years? You remind me of the old hippies, 'Yeah man, we can opt out of the system and just live on a commune man'.

 

[Ryan]

Too right SER8, but rather than just whining about that spade why don't you do like I and others have done, risk everything, put your house on the line, be the very very last in line to get paid and start your own business so you don't have to be locked in servitude.

The power is in your hands. If you don't have the nads to do that then please stop whining about those awful spades.

What whining? Merely statement of fact. All the whining is from you and mozgrane about how hard it is to run your own business.
And it is beyond foolish to preach, 'Hey guys the way to freedom is over here, start your own business you'll be free from servitude'. Do you have any idea how many businesses fail within the first 2 years? You remind me of the old hippies, 'Yeah man, we can opt out of the system and just live on a commune man'.

Sorry SeaEagleRock8, I say this with the utmost respect - I completely disagree mate. People who start small/medium business are some of the most courageous people in the world. They don't do what PAYG people do, and knock off at 5pm or 6pm, have weekends and holidays - they live their job 24/7.

If they need working capital for growth, or need additional funding for another purpose, generally speaking, they put their heads on the line with their house - backing their business.

I agree a lot of Businesses fail, but at the same time, many, many more succeed.

I will always look up to Business owners as my better, no matter how big or small their Business / Company / Incorporation etc etc etc is. I hold them in such high esteem.

Therefore, these people are certainly not whining. They are telling you how it is. Without this SME segment, today's economy would be totally screwed SeaEagleRock8. We should be kissing their feet, not criticising them.

 

[Budgie]

Too right SER8, but rather than just whining about that spade why don't you do like I and others have done, risk everything, put your house on the line, be the very very last in line to get paid and start your own business so you don't have to be locked in servitude.

The power is in your hands. If you don't have the nads to do that then please stop whining about those awful spades.

What whining? Merely statement of fact. All the whining is from you and mozgrane about how hard it is to run your own business.
And it is beyond foolish to preach, 'Hey guys the way to freedom is over here, start your own business you'll be free from servitude'. Do you have any idea how many businesses fail within the first 2 years? You remind me of the old hippies, 'Yeah man, we can opt out of the system and just live on a commune man'.

Sorry SeaEagleRock8, I say this with the utmost respect - I completely disagree mate. People who start small/medium business are some of the most courageous people in the world. They don't do what PAYG people do, and knock off at 5pm or 6pm, have weekends and holidays - they live their job 24/7.

If they need working capital for growth, or need additional funding for another purpose, generally speaking, they put their heads on the line with their house - backing their business.

I agree a lot of Businesses fail, but at the same time, many, many more succeed.

I will always look up to Business owners as my better, no matter how big or small their Business / Company / Incorporation etc etc etc is. I hold them in such high esteem.

Therefore, these people are certainly not whining. They are telling you how it is. Without this SME segment, today's economy would be totally screwed SeaEagleRock8. We should be kissing their feet, not criticising them.

As a small business owner, Ryan, you made my day.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

.. We should be kissing their feet, not criticising them.

I don't encourage such demeaning behaviour, but if that's your style, fine, then kiss my feet, because I started a small business from scratch and ran it successfully for 6 years before selling it as a going concern.
Where did I criticise small business operators? Some of you people have real problems with comprehension, it seems. My initial point was with regard to the criteria by which the efficacy of industry subsidies should be judged. We are all in the same system, the fact some are in different roles simply colours their attitudes in line with their various vested interests.

 

[mozgrame]

I certainly don't want anyone kissing my feet or holding me in esteem because of an ABN. Quite the opposite. I kiss the feet of my employees. It is a give and take dance between us it makes for a wonderful partnership. The best thing ever to happen for small business was enterprise bargaining.

I think, SER8, that you have the same comprehension problems as the rest of us if you think that Ralphie and I were whining. I too was merely stating fact. Business owners are entitled to bigger rewards because business owners are the ones taking all the financial risk. I don't think that differs on the basis of the size of the business.

One of your other points was in regard to Newstart. Do you concede that you were wrong about the 6 month wait if you become unemployed? You were very adamant about that "fact". Maybe, just maybe, you could be wrong about other things as well.

 

[Bandit]

Misleading thread title.

Sometimes, I feel like walking around in a T-shirt that says (in big letters) . . .

"Excuse me, but you've obviously mistaken
me for somebody who gives a Fark."

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Both you and Ralphie accused me of whining then proceeded to bleat about the travails of trying to run a business. Didn't you?

But leaving aside the personal attacks about whining, initiated by you, your risk/reward argument leads to suggesting professional gamblers, property developers and stock exchange speculators should get the greatest rewards because they make their living taking risks. I defer to your logic.

As for me being wrong about the dole, why not post an appropriate link to show how wrong I am? You simply saying it does not make it so.
It took me 60 seconds to find this one but it may not be reliable, it's only from the Australian government.
http://www.humanservices.gov.au/corporate/publications-and-resources/budget/1415/measures/job-seekers/64-90066

 

[Technical Coach]

Technically speaking I really should involve myself in this debate but I'm turning over a new leaf and becoming a "true fan"----always remaining a positive fence sitter if that is possible.

Hmm thinking I need to develop some passive aggressive techniques to make this work.

 

[mozgrame]

Both you and Ralphie accused me of whining then proceeded to bleat about the travails of trying to run a business. Didn't you?

But leaving aside the personal attacks about whining, initiated by you, your risk/reward argument leads to suggesting professional gamblers, property developers and stock exchange speculators should get the greatest rewards because they make their living taking risks. I defer to your logic.

As for me being wrong about the dole, why not post an appropriate link to show how wrong I am? You simply saying it does not make it so.
It took me 60 seconds to find this one but it may not be reliable, it's only from the Australian government.
http://www.humanservices.gov.au/corporate/publications-and-resources/budget/1415/measures/job-seekers/64-90066

Well, I've been told lol. The point I was so uselessly trying to make is that in post number 62 you stated, "People under 30 who become unemployed will have to wait six months to be eligible for Newstart...

The link you posted above, clearly says the maximum wait is 6 months. The minimum wait is 1 month. So you should have said that in your post instead of going for the worst case scenario. The link also goes into detail about how the Government will help unemployed people find work, relocate if necessary and encourages them to "take up learning activities which qualify them for student payments including, Youth Allowance (Students), Austudy and ABSTUDY. Recipients of those payments are unaffected by these changes. This measure also takes into account the changed maximum age of YA(o) which is separately described".

Hardly left high and dry by an uncaring Government!!

In regards to running a business, or in my case, several businesses, I'm sorry for giving you the impression I was whining. I was merely stating what should be the blatantly obvious (but a lot of people don't seem to get) the rewards are high, and so is the effort/risk. Once your business systems are in place, they run themselves however, giving you ample time to enjoy life and not stress to much about the things you cannot change .

As for your example of risk/reward (reward to me is money in the bank) YES!! Professional gamblers, property developers and stock exchange speculators and anyone else willing to lose everything should get the greatest rewards because they make their living taking risks. DUH! Why the hell would you take large risks if the rewards were not high??

Anyway, cheers for link. It is great to see the Government so willing to help people that truly want to help themselves. No more professional dole bludgers! Great initiative by the Prime Minister and his team.

GO MANLY!!!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Wikipedia
"Petite bourgeoisie is a French term (sometimes derogatory) referring to a social class comprising semi-autonomous peasantry and small-scale merchants whose politico-economic ideological stance is determined by reflecting that of a haute (high) bourgeoisie, with which the petite bourgeoisie seeks to identify itself, and whose bourgeois morality it strives to imitate."

Seems apt...

 

[MadMarcus]

This thread is really living up to its title.

 

[Hamster Huey]

Wikipedia
"Petite bourgeoisie is a French term (sometimes derogatory) referring to a social class comprising semi-autonomous peasantry and small-scale merchants whose politico-economic ideological stance is determined by reflecting that of a haute (high) bourgeoisie, with which the petite bourgeoisie seeks to identify itself, and whose bourgeois morality it strives to imitate."

Seems apt...

So having aspirations is now to be mocked? The term sounds like it would enjoy use by a group that generally holds a victim-mentality.

 

[mozgrame]

The Aussie battler - Macqaurie dictionary.

'Battler' seems to be a homegrown Australian use which derives from phrases like 'battle on' or 'battle around'. A battler was someone who battled on against all odds.

The term comes into use in the 1890s depression and was in a rural context synonymous with a swagman. But in general a battler was someone who struggled to survive – as on the streets in the city or on a small landholding – and who wouldn't give up.

Much closer to the mark. I grew up in adverse poverty in a home that was rife with severe alcohol abuse, and was certainly no stranger to domestic violence. Big deal, right? So many people have.

I dropped out of school at 15, never even getting close to a passing grade. I successfully failed every subject (not for the want of desperately trying) except PE. I figured I was wasting everyone's time and what little money we had, and left home to work for bloke in a small town called Wowan. I worked there for 2 years. $100 dollars a week and free lodgings. What I got in return was a work ethic and a ton of experience in the "real world".

One thing I am proud of, and grateful for, was that no matter where I worked during my teens and early twenties, despite my lack of education, I always ended up in a leaders position. The last job I had before starting my first business was with Spotless Limited as 2IC for the entire CQ region.

Still, I always wanted better for myself, and then my kids. Starting my own business was a very natural progression, but something I desperately wanted, or needed to do. And I did it. With no hand outs. No rich relative to lend me the start up capital. No bank loan. I am also VERY proud to say, I have never been on unemployment benefits, not that I think they aren't important. Some people desperately need them. I was always too pig headed, or proud or stubborn I guess.

Anyway, that's me in a nutshell. I should be the poster boy for the under dog. No real education. No family to fall back on. Too proud to accept a handout from anyone, and yet here I am. Anything is possible if you are willing to work hard enough to succeed. YOU are the only person that can change your world. Just get off your arse and have a lash. It's the Aussie way, right?

Just before I put the violin away, LOL, I will add, although I strive everyday to be as different from my own upbringing as I can, I loved my Mum and Step Dad (both deceased) dearly. I'm sure they did the best they could. If nothing else, they instilled in me a love of the Australian bush, and the "bushy" way of life. If I could go back in time and change anything, I don't think I would. It moulded me into the bloke I am today.

Sorry to bore everyone, and no, I'm not RiverEagle either. Haha! Just thought I'd let you know. I'll say no more on the subject. Promise.