Major sporting codes [including NRL] to back Voice to parliament

[ElectricEagle]

If the voice really helps those in need, then I can get on board. But exactly how will the voice affect things in a practical manner?

As an example, how will the voice affect the juveniles out on the streets of Alice Springs, Darwin, and Townsville?

Or perhaps the death of Kumanjayi Walker in the Northern Territory who attacked a police officer with scissors and was shot unfortunately causing his death? In court of law the police officer was cleared of murder, but the indigenous community demands their own form of justice. Do we treat the police officer differently because of the opinions of a race of persons? Imagine if the voice panel or group or whatever have you have the power to influence courts or parliament?

It's not that far a stretch. Right now in Canberra preparations are taking place to conduct an inquest into the mistrial of Bruce Lehrmann (Sexual Assault of Brittany Higgins). There is the insinuation that due to media pressure and political interference, the director of the DPP pushed the case, when the evidence would suggest that the evidence was not clear. Now imagine if a politically or racially motivated body had power to influence lawmakers and the bias which they could cause.

Race based legislation is despicable. The more I find out about it the more I am disgusted. It's potentially one of the most important amendments to the constitution since it's beginning. And when we ask for any specific detail we get an answer akin to 'It's all good we will do it later'. Albo put on your big boy pants, get your **** together, write up the proposal properly and then let us have the referendum. Why the rush I just don't know.

 

[manly al]

Does anybody know if the NO side will have a voice, no pun intended. Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine have both come out strongly since this was first put forward, against the YES vote. Just having these individuals explain their side of the argument would take out the racist comments component.

Sure that they will have plenty of opportunities as should the general public . Referendum is not due until year's end . Going to be quite disconcerting and annoying if this topic is going to receive some out of proportion attention in the mean time , heaps of other and more serious domestic issues to try and come to terms with and remedy in the short or long term

 

[Eagle 1]

Sure that they will have plenty of opportunities as should the general public . Referendum is not due until year's end . Going to be quite disconcerting and annoying if this topic is going to receive some out of proportion attention in the mean time , heaps of other and more serious domestic issues to try and come to terms with and remedy in the short or long term

It's in October Al, end of the footy season.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

If the voice really helps those in need, then I can get on board. But exactly how will the voice affect things in a practical manner?

As an example, how will the voice affect the juveniles out on the streets of Alice Springs, Darwin, and Townsville?

Or perhaps the death of Kumanjayi Walker in the Northern Territory who attacked a police officer with scissors and was shot unfortunately causing his death? In court of law the police officer was cleared of murder, but the indigenous community demands their own form of justice. Do we treat the police officer differently because of the opinions of a race of persons? Imagine if the voice panel or group or whatever have you have the power to influence courts or parliament?

It's not that far a stretch. Right now in Canberra preparations are taking place to conduct an inquest into the mistrial of Bruce Lehrmann (Sexual Assault of Brittany Higgins). There is the insinuation that due to media pressure and political interference, the director of the DPP pushed the case, when the evidence would suggest that the evidence was not clear. Now imagine if a politically or racially motivated body had power to influence lawmakers and the bias which they could cause.

Race based legislation is despicable. The more I find out about it the more I am disgusted. It's potentially one of the most important amendments to the constitution since it's beginning. And when we ask for any specific detail we get an answer akin to 'It's all good we will do it later'. Albo put on your big boy pants, get your **** together, write up the proposal properly and then let us have the referendum. Why the rush I just don't know.

Some of the arguments I've seen put forward against the Voice do look a tad paternalistic. Acknowledging that there are problems specific to Indigenous Australians ... but unfortunately they just don't understand what would help them, so we will refuse their request because it's in their own interests (!)

As for "race based legislation" - I thought the whole point was to be a symbolic acknowledgement in the constitution of the racist theft of their land by European settlers? (racist because it was based on the racist 'terra nullius' fiction)

Also, arguments about how this is going to adversely affect all the non-Indigenous people are a bit hard to take seriously, imo. Are you seriously concerned that Aboriginal people are soon going to be exploiting and oppressing you? Come one, surely not! Just seems a bit like conspiracy fear mongering to me.

As to why the NRL and other sports would get involved, I agree that is a very good question, I can probably think of a couple of reasons but not that fussed really.

 

[ElectricEagle]

Some of the arguments I've seen put forward against the Voice do look a tad paternalistic. Acknowledging that there are problems specific to Indigenous Australians ... but unfortunately they just don't understand what would help them, so we will refuse their request because it's in their own interests (!)

As for "race based legislation" - I thought the whole point was to be a symbolic acknowledgement in the constitution of the racist theft of their land by European settlers? (racist because it was based on the racist 'terra nullius' fiction)

Also, arguments about how this is going to adversely affect all the non-Indigenous people are a bit hard to take seriously, imo. Are you seriously concerned that Aboriginal people are soon going to be exploiting and oppressing you? Come one, surely not! Just seems a bit like conspiracy fear mongering to me.

As to why the NRL and other sports would get involved, I agree that is a very good question, I can probably think of a couple of reasons but not that fussed really.

I take your point regarding the paternalistic view. I am probably looking at it somewhat through the prism of adversity against non indigenous. But that doesn't change my (intended) points, being that

• This will not help indigenous persons
• Legislation, and the law should be totally race blind and all persons treated equally under the law. No exceptions.

 

[Budgie]

Look I disagree a little , I have a fair bit of time ( being retired ) so have read heaps and heaps on it.

Loads of fluff , loads of “ the vibe “ , lots of reasons why we should vote yes but very very little on the really important items.

How’s it exactly going to work.

Who chooses who represents.

And after chosen what are their powers

And what’s the cost , and the aim to reach.

ATSIC was an abject failure and cost billions ( most of it misappropriated and pissed up the wall ).

You know me @Budgie I’m far from a racist , in fact I’ve had 50 of my 68 years living in an aboriginal community and you won’t find a greater supporter of them doing better than me.

But I’m just a huge sceptic of this doing anything other than causing more racial division.

And sorry , but as I’ve said , whilst there loads of information out there , there’s bugger all on the real guts of how it will work and how much the cost is, and I reckon if they keep that hidden it’ll fail.

Not aimed at you Mark at all (sorry it came in a response to your post) and I absolutely know you're not racist. I just get frustrated at peole who don't bother to find stuff out for themselves Google has made it easier than ever.

I think there's still a lot of detail to come out, as you'd expect. It's a fair way off.

I found this quite useful, especially if you follow all the links:

What do we know about the Voice to Parliament design, and what do we still need to know?

There has been much debate about the “details” of the Voice to Parliament, but the referendum is on the principle.

theconversation.com

Personally, I think it won't get up (constitutional change is an extremely high bar - as it should be) and that will be a dreadful blow to much of the work that has gone on in advancing so many indigenous areas.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Not aimed at you Mark at all (sorry it came in a response to your post) and I absolutely know you're not racist. I just get frustrated at peole who don't bother to find stuff out for themselves Google has made it easier than ever.

I think there's still a lot of detail to come out, as you'd expect. It's a fair way off.

I found this quite useful, especially if you follow all the links:

What do we know about the Voice to Parliament design, and what do we still need to know?

There has been much debate about the “details” of the Voice to Parliament, but the referendum is on the principle.

theconversation.com

Personally, I think it won't get up (constitutional change is an extremely high bar - as it should be) and that will be a dreadful blow to much of the work that has gone on in advancing so many indigenous areas.

I would love to see something really meaningful , to address the myriad of issues they have across the nation.

However what I wouldn’t like to see is a bunch of left wing radicals chosen to push whatever their agenda is , and that’s exactly what I fear will happen with a Labor inspired “ Voice”.

Remember their last iteration ( ATSIC) was an unmitigated disaster.

My angst is the real issues , the real problems ( and any who have an interest in the topic knows what these are ) , won’t be addressed.

The radicals will want things like,

More land given to them
More money ( much more ) to be pissed up the wall on a bunch of meaningless schemes.
The abandonment of Australia Day
And more , much more division between indigenous and non indigenous Australians.

You see the “ Voice “ has all the right vibe , the concept of doing better for them is great BUT the skeptic in me just knows they’ll **** it up again like they did with ATSIC.

The way forward is jobs , education , less ( ultimately none) reliance on welfare , greater pride in their culture and themselves.

I have a load of aboriginal friends from my days in Moree , they live normal lives , have jobs , live in normal houses , with educated kids and there’s no way you see them protesting about “ land rights / Australia Day “ they just get on with their lives and think of themselves as Australians first and Australians with an indigenous background second.

That’s where we have to be headed !!

And the radical left wing won’t get us there at all.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I take your point regarding the paternalistic view. I am probably looking at it somewhat through the prism of adversity against non indigenous. But that doesn't change my (intended) points, being that

• This will not help indigenous persons
• Legislation, and the law should be totally race blind and all persons treated equally under the law. No exceptions.

I can see the issue is important to you so sorry if I didn't take due acknowledgement of your points. To be fair you've probably thought more about it than I.

Couple of quick points, I'm possibly inlcined to leap to conclusions when i see certain lines of argument. You may not have seen them but during the off season there's been some soapbox discussions and your argument about "totally race blind and all persons treated equally under the law" reminded me of that, just because it's what I'd call an 'idealist' viewpoint. Meaning based on some alleged higher sacred or divine truth, at the expense of acknowledging material reality and history.

Anyhow there's still a few hours of off-season (or a couple of days for Manly) so happy to think more about it. As for the major sports getting involved, I'm probably a bit cynical about their reasons, for example what @Woodsie suggested. However I don't mind that they are supporting the Voice.

 

[Eagle 1]

I would love to see something really meaningful , to address the myriad of issues they have across the nation.

However what I wouldn’t like to see is a bunch of left wing radicals chosen to push whatever their agenda is , and that’s exactly what I fear will happen with a Labor inspired “ Voice”.

Remember their last iteration ( ATSIC) was an unmitigated disaster.

My angst is the real issues , the real problems ( and any who have an interest in the topic knows what these are ) , won’t be addressed.

The radicals will want things like,

More land given to them
More money ( much more ) to be pissed up the wall on a bunch of meaningless schemes.
The abandonment of Australia Day
And more , much more division between indigenous and non indigenous Australians.

You see the “ Voice “ has all the right vibe , the concept of doing better for them is great BUT the skeptic in me just knows they’ll **** it up again like they did with ATSIC.

The way forward is jobs , education , less ( ultimately none) reliance on welfare , greater pride in their culture and themselves.

I have a load of aboriginal friends from my days in Moree , they live normal lives , have jobs , live in normal houses , with educated kids and there’s no way you see them protesting about “ land rights / Australia Day “ they just get on with their lives and think of themselves as Australians first and Australians with an indigenous background second.

That’s where we have to be headed !!

And the radical left wing won’t get us there at all.

you mean left wing radicals like Lidia Thorpe, she's so far left even the Greens aren't left enough for her. She did an interview on our ABC and said why are you hailing MP Linda Burney as a hero of the yes vote, and then proceeded to cut the interviewer, Patricia Karvelas to shreds. Karvelas was expecting to get favourable left leaning answers back, but only copped heavy flack in return, it was hilarious.

 

[Budgie]

I would love to see something really meaningful , to address the myriad of issues they have across the nation.

However what I wouldn’t like to see is a bunch of left wing radicals chosen to push whatever their agenda is , and that’s exactly what I fear will happen with a Labor inspired “ Voice”.

Remember their last iteration ( ATSIC) was an unmitigated disaster.

My angst is the real issues , the real problems ( and any who have an interest in the topic knows what these are ) , won’t be addressed.

The radicals will want things like,

More land given to them
More money ( much more ) to be pissed up the wall on a bunch of meaningless schemes.
The abandonment of Australia Day
And more , much more division between indigenous and non indigenous Australians.

You see the “ Voice “ has all the right vibe , the concept of doing better for them is great BUT the skeptic in me just knows they’ll **** it up again like they did with ATSIC.

The way forward is jobs , education , less ( ultimately none) reliance on welfare , greater pride in their culture and themselves.

I have a load of aboriginal friends from my days in Moree , they live normal lives , have jobs , live in normal houses , with educated kids and there’s no way you see them protesting about “ land rights / Australia Day “ they just get on with their lives and think of themselves as Australians first and Australians with an indigenous background second.

That’s where we have to be headed !!

And the radical left wing won’t get us there at all.

Because it is only, and can only be an advisory body, the many very intelligent indigenous people would be wise (and they did a great job on the Statement from the Heart) to choose people whose advice will benefit areas of education, health, suicide and incarcerations etc.

It is in their interest to choose those who will make a strong argument to affect positive change for the indigenous community. I trust that they can do so and I'm also fully aware that the Government of the day completely ignore it.

 

[jbb/james]

I would love to see something really meaningful , to address the myriad of issues they have across the nation.

However what I wouldn’t like to see is a bunch of left wing radicals chosen to push whatever their agenda is , and that’s exactly what I fear will happen with a Labor inspired “ Voice”.

Remember their last iteration ( ATSIC) was an unmitigated disaster.

My angst is the real issues , the real problems ( and any who have an interest in the topic knows what these are ) , won’t be addressed.

The radicals will want things like,

More land given to them
More money ( much more ) to be pissed up the wall on a bunch of meaningless schemes.
The abandonment of Australia Day
And more , much more division between indigenous and non indigenous Australians.

You see the “ Voice “ has all the right vibe , the concept of doing better for them is great BUT the skeptic in me just knows they’ll **** it up again like they did with ATSIC.

The way forward is jobs , education , less ( ultimately none) reliance on welfare , greater pride in their culture and themselves.

I have a load of aboriginal friends from my days in Moree , they live normal lives , have jobs , live in normal houses , with educated kids and there’s no way you see them protesting about “ land rights / Australia Day “ they just get on with their lives and think of themselves as Australians first and Australians with an indigenous background second.

That’s where we have to be headed !!

And the radical left wing get us there at all.

good post

no doubt the far left are idealists, the far right seem very insular to change and the middle mainly go about there business with empathy to either side. and the media keep them poles apart

is it even possible that youngies and oldies havnt worked out this mutual disdain its a reoccurring cycle to divide. surely us oldies that have been though both sides could have more understanding

but if we keep with the 2 party vote, we keep getting the same .we could still be having this chat in 50 years or younger people could be.in that time we will waste zillions on focus groups, brain bubbles, think tanks and ignore all findings unless its a favourable election issue. anything else will be buried as top secret and take years to uncover.

to get a reasonable outcome we need to change the status quo. its useless getting all educated about 2 referendums per decade and ignore the big picture and day to day.

when difficult decisions need to be made its better to put it on the people as to not affect votes

the people should be involved in many more decisions regarding super, healthcare, retirement, war, education, and of course how the politicians feather there own nests but NO

if we want significant change with meaningful outcomes we need better leaders who are leaders in there fields instead of career politicians. if you sway with the breeze you have a chance of keeping your job but are subject to lunatics hyped up with todays buzz emotion

its on us to demand more

its all about distraction. remember the boat people distraction and its outcomes. faaark me.

the issue is never the issue

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

good post

no doubt the far left are idealists, the far right seem very insular to change and the middle mainly go about there business with empathy to either side. and the media keep them poles apart

is it even possible that youngies and oldies havnt worked out this mutual disdain its a reoccurring cycle to divide. surely us oldies that have been though both sides could have more understanding

but if we keep with the 2 party vote, we keep getting the same .we could still be having this chat in 50 years or younger people could be.in that time we will waste zillions on focus groups, brain bubbles, think tanks and ignore all findings unless its a favourable election issue. anything else will be buried as top secret and take years to uncover.

to get a reasonable outcome we need to change the status quo. its useless getting all educated about 2 referendums per decade and ignore the big picture and day to day.

when difficult decisions need to be made its better to put it on the people as to not affect votes

the people should be involved in many more decisions regarding super, healthcare, retirement, war, education, and of course how the politicians feather there own nests but NO

if we want significant change with meaningful outcomes we need better leaders who are leaders in there fields instead of career politicians. if you sway with the breeze you have a chance of keeping your job but are subject to lunatics hyped up with todays buzz emotion

its on us to demand more

its all about distraction. remember the boat people distraction and its outcomes. faaark me.

the issue is never the issue

I’m firmly in the middle , but a conservative middle.

The far left are nutters ,but equally so are the far right.

The Voice is just another ATSIC , and we know how that ended.

I would love to see some meaningful fixes to the problems , but I can only see that if neither the far left or the far right are involved and the real people affected by the myriad of issues are the ones driving this.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

you mean left wing radicals like Lidia Thorpe, she's so far left even the Greens aren't left enough for her. She did an interview on our ABC and said why are you hailing MP Linda Burney as a hero of the yes vote, and then proceeded to cut the interviewer, Patricia Karvelas to shreds. Karvelas was expecting to get favourable left leaning answers back, but only copped heavy flack in return, it was hilarious.

Complete nutter !!

 

[wombatgc]

you mean left wing radicals like Lidia Thorpe, she's so far left even the Greens aren't left enough for her. She did an interview on our ABC and said why are you hailing MP Linda Burney as a hero of the yes vote, and then proceeded to cut the interviewer, Patricia Karvelas to shreds. Karvelas was expecting to get favourable left leaning answers back, but only copped heavy flack in return, it was hilarious.

I listened to that one. It was batshiit brutal. Lidia is definitely "off the leash".

 

[wombatgc]

It's in October Al, end of the footy season.

I guarantee you one thing, this thread won’t make it till October. Hell, be lucky to survive a month.It will become a bloodbath.

 

[Eagle 1]

I listened to that one. It was batshiit brutal. Lidia is definitely "off the leash".

yep wombatgc, she really is an out of control missile, but loving what she brings to the table as regards to a counter argument to what Labor and the Greens want. Karvelas didn't know which way to turn, you could see she wanted to pull the plug on Thorpe, but to late, the cat was out of the bag, so to speak..lol.

 

[wombatgc]

yep wombatgc, she really is an out of control missile, but loving what she brings to the table as regards to a counter argument to what Labor and the Greens want. Karvelas didn't know which way to turn, you could see she wanted to pull the plug on Thorpe, but to late, the cat was out of the bag, so to speak..lol.

Oh yeah, I agree. Between now and the 26 million dollar referendum, she is going to give us our monies worth In entertainment. Albo and Brandt must be shiiting themselves.

 

[ElectricEagle]

So good. Lidia Thorpe is just the gift that keeps on giving. Absolute lunatic.

 

[wombatgc]

So good. Lidia Thorpe is just the gift that keeps on giving. Absolute lunatic.

A belated well done on your original post @ElectricEagle. I hope you don’t mind but I saved that. It was so well written and on point.

 

[Eagle 1]

So good. Lidia Thorpe is just the gift that keeps on giving. Absolute lunatic.

True, how'd ever thought she'd become Labor's IED (improvised explosion device) that goes off in there faces.