NSW & Holden Cups - Round 23 Team Lists, Info & Results etc.

[RiverEagle]

Obviously @"Masked Eagle" the development of players, and 1st-grade success, are the ultimate goals.

Losing though (especially losing heavily) is not often good for the development of players; particularly young players like 18, 19, 20 yr olds.

And when our lower grades are winning, it boosts the image and confidence of a club, and their supporters.

The Holden Cup boys had won 6 or 7 on the trot and were on the cusp of the 8.

That's why it's such a disappointment (and shock) for mine, mate.

 

[Masked Eagle]

Obviously @"Masked Eagle" the development of players, and 1st-grade success, are the ultimate goals.

Losing though (especially losing heavily) is not often good for the development of players; particularly young players like 18, 19, 20 yr olds.

And when our lower grades are winning, it boosts the image and confidence of a club, and their supporters.

The Holden Cup boys had won 6 or 7 on the trot and were on the cusp of the 8.

That's why it's such a disappointment (and shock) for mine, mate.

I'm not saying winning isn't good, but all I know is that having poor lower grades sides hasn't hurt us too much in the last 10 or so years (bar that really good 20s side we had).

I understand that winning can also help with development and its good for them to experience that, but I would argue with people who say our lower grade coaches must be hopeless because we aren't winning. Evidence suggests that when guys are called up they rarely let us down. Development should be the number 1 priority, other clubs focus on the winning and I'm happy for those clubs to fill their trophy cabinet up with winning the SG Ball, Flegg, U20s, NSW Cup because I'm happy enough with the NRL premierships that are in ours.

 

[RiverEagle]

Again, I'm not disputing the development of players is a priority.

(Nor am I blaming any coaches here either, I'd like to clarify).

I'm simply saying for a young man, say 17, 18, 19 or 20, to largely experience losing dents confidence, attitudes and sometimes ambition.

(They'll walk away and find something else to do or play, instead of the demoralization of heavy, repetitive losses in footy).

Used to be popular and prestigious, the old Club Championship, too.

Non-existent nowadays.

 

[Bearfax]

It was our Queensland Cup (equal to NSW Cup) victors a couple of years ago that have placed us now in a strong position. That's where Foran, Cherry-Evans, Buhrer et al came from. Without that strong group of players coming through and performing well, our present stocks would have been a lot lower and we would have been with the also rans. So lower teams are important.

 

[Shoe1]

It was our Queensland Cup (equal to NSW Cup) victors a couple of years ago that have placed us now in a strong position. That's where Foran, Cherry-Evans, Buhrer et al came from. Without that strong group of players coming through and performing well, our present stocks would have been a lot lower and we would have been with the also rans. So lower teams are important.

That trio were all manly Toyota cup players. I don't think foran actually got a game in the qld cup. He went straight from juniors to 1st grade.

 

[Harry]

Its good for sponsors as well as they like seeing a strong junior development at the club.
You have to put yourself in their shoes .... players in the lower grades here want to be competitive with other clubs and their mates in being in the mix for Rep selections as well and its good promotion for the club but if your coming at the bottom of the ladder you don't have much chance on being selected
These kids want to win, learn and enjoy the process and its not happening. We keep buying players from other clubs which is not helping our juniors moving forward either. Some of these talented players are watching and talking to their 19 year old mates playing 1st grade now at other clubs and getting the experience already and on better pay as well. Our boys don't want to be stuck at age 22/23 years playing in a unachieving Cup side getting belted each week and hopefully waiting for a position to be available in our 1sts which might not even happen and some of them don't want to be with the 20s coach either for next year.
With rival clubs sniffing around looking to pounce, I can see unfortunately good talent being lost here for next season and some of these kids have started off here at Manly at age 14 in development squads.

---

What is it with Manly's selection of lower grade coaches. They seem to do fine with first grade...Toovey seems an excellent coach...and his support coaches always seem top notch. But the NSW Cup and U 20 coaches seem to be on the nose year after year. Hope we dont lose some of these kids coming through, but if there is suggestion of that then manly need to be doing something quickly about their lower grade coaching selections. Why isnt someone like Cliff Lyons being offered a spot or the coaches of the Peninsula Seagulls side

Cliffy coached NSW Cup at one stage for only one season. We need him back and some of the other Manly legends lending a hand. Noticed some of the names of the coaches for the other 20s teams and they are well known and their teams are doing well.

 

[Bearfax]

Harry, are you close to the action on the juniors. Your comment that we could lose a couple of our up and coming stars is not comforting. Do you know something not being said. Cliffy coached the Narraweena side to a premiership a few years back. He's highly respected and loved and I would have thought Manly would use him especially with the young kids coming through who would still recall his silky skills. Tim Gee at Peninsula Seagulls has also done a remarkable job. These are the guys we should be chasing.

 

[Ramrod]

NSW Cup Rnd 23

Rnd 23 Recap:
http://www.nswrl.com.au/news/2014/08/18/sea_eagles_v_jets_vb_nsw_cup_rd_23.html

I think Cheyse Blair is good but I believe Gutho is better.
Taufua is carrying injury. You can tell by the way he has been on the field.

Reasons for Gutho:

1. Great under high balls.
2. Speed to burn.
3. Can kick goals. Got one from the sidelines. Good backup for Killer.
4. Very good support play.
5. Scores lots of tries.
6. Outstanding haircut.
7. Good defender.

If Matai is available, I would go with Gutho and Hiku on the wings.
It'll take a brave decision to drop Taufua or Blair for Gutho.

-

 

[Darren]

Great stuff Harry, but we do promote kids if they are ready and local. Choc, Kingy etc and even Tooves. We all know Tom and Jake T are pretty close and so is Gutho. Theyt promoted Jesse. Charlie Taylor is a bit away from 1st grade. Kids like Knight aew doing well. Chee Kam was a big money flop so far and that would frustrate locals but it was thought we was going to be a gun.

I'm not sure of too many 18-20 year olds playing first grade with their local club? The boys from Newcastle do stand out.

 

[Harry]

Great stuff Harry, but we do promote kids if they are ready and local. Choc, Kingy etc and even Tooves. We all know Tom and Jake T are pretty close and so is Gutho. Theyt promoted Jesse. Charlie Taylor is a bit away from 1st grade. Kids like Knight aew doing well. Chee Kam was a big money flop so far and that would frustrate locals but it was thought we was going to be a gun.

I'm not sure of too many 18-20 year olds playing first grade with their local club? The boys from Newcastle do stand out.

Choc and Kingy are the only 2 locals playing 1st and If Choc goes and the same for Kingy there will be no juniors in the 1st grade side.
Here are some of the youngsters from other clubs who have made their debuts ....
Tepai is a Parra Junior and is playing 1sts and has only turned 19. The fullback Sione Mata’utia for Newcastle has just turned 18 and with his other young brother Chanel Mata'utia, Cameron Munster (19) made his debut for the Storm, Cameron Munster (19) for Cronulla making his debut, Dallin Watene-Zelezniak (18) – Penrith Panthers, Tautau Moga (19) – Cowboys, Mitchell Moses (19) – Wests Tigers, David Klemmer (20) – Bulldogs, Alex Johntson (19) – South Sydney, Valentine Holmes (19) – Cronulla Sharks, Luke Brooks (19) – Wests Tigers. The Roosters had an 18 year old forward making his debut a couple of weeks ago as well.
All the teams are doing it. If Manly don't want to give them a run and get them used to it thats fine as other clubs will as the talented kids will end up making their debuts somewhere else. Which is ashame.
What I am hearing Some of these talented players won't be back next year anyway.
Knight, Hoppa and Taylor should be getting some runs in 1sts now, put Taylor on the wing and with our great halves combination and centres with his speed he will be blitzing in the tries and Hoppa and Knight giving them a go as Lock / second row

 

[The Who]

Tooves won't be experimenting with debutants at this stage of the season.
Gutherson, perhaps. He's played well in his two (?) games in first grade. I had questions over his defence and his speed after watching him in the lower grades, but he does seem to be the real deal.

 

[sami12]

What is it with Manly's selection of lower grade coaches. They seem to do fine with first grade...Toovey seems an excellent coach...and his support coaches always seem top notch. But the NSW Cup and U 20 coaches seem to be on the nose year after year. Hope we dont lose some of these kids coming through, but if there is suggestion of that then manly need to be doing something quickly about their lower grade coaching selections. Why isnt someone like Cliff Lyons being offered a spot or the coaches of the Peninsula Seagulls side

Agree with you and with the 20s coach Heath, I have never heard of him. With limited positions available in our 1sts and so many 19 year olds making their debut at other clubs already. I can't see too many of the talented players in our 20s hanging around here next season, some of these kids should be getting game time in 1sts now, the thought of playing and getting injured in an unachieving Cup side continuously here is not very appealing either, who could blame them, you might as well bang your head against a brick wall.

If a young 19 yr old is worrying about get injured in our nsw cup side I don't think there ready for nrl what a joke of a topic. This is why nrl are going to scrap the 20s comp because players and PARENTS have the thought that because there playing in Holden cup it's a natural progression to the top grade.Not many kids progress through and the results of the 20s and nsw cup doesn't decide whether your good enough to be an nrl player.It would do our 20s players a lot of good to play some tough footy in nsw cup and by the sounds of some posters their parents could benefit too
Our NSW cup results this year are due to the massive injury toll and we all no manly doesn't spend money to have many fringe first graders sitting in this comp.

 

[Harry]

What is it with Manly's selection of lower grade coaches. They seem to do fine with first grade...Toovey seems an excellent coach...and his support coaches always seem top notch. But the NSW Cup and U 20 coaches seem to be on the nose year after year. Hope we dont lose some of these kids coming through, but if there is suggestion of that then manly need to be doing something quickly about their lower grade coaching selections. Why isnt someone like Cliff Lyons being offered a spot or the coaches of the Peninsula Seagulls side

Agree with you and with the 20s coach Heath, I have never heard of him. With limited positions available in our 1sts and so many 19 year olds making their debut at other clubs already. I can't see too many of the talented players in our 20s hanging around here next season, some of these kids should be getting game time in 1sts now, the thought of playing and getting injured in an unachieving Cup side continuously here is not very appealing either, who could blame them, you might as well bang your head against a brick wall.

If a young 19 yr old is worrying about get injured in our nsw cup side I don't think there ready for nrl what a joke of a topic. This is why nrl are going to scrap the 20s comp because players and PARENTS have the thought that because there playing in Holden cup it's a natural progression to the top grade.Not many kids progress through and the results of the 20s and nsw cup doesn't decide whether your good enough to be an nrl player.It would do our 20s players a lot of good to play some tough footy in nsw cup and by the sounds of some posters their parents could benefit too
Our NSW cup results this year are due to the massive injury toll and we all no manly doesn't spend money to have many fringe first graders sitting in this comp.

Its not a case of a 19 year old getting injured in our NSW Cup team at all, its the fact our cup side has been shocking for years compared to other cup teams. They might as well bang their head against a brick wall than play in this as I have said before, the kids want to see some light at the end of the tunnel and they are not seeing it here. With hardly any spots free in 1sts, a NSW cup team that gets smashed year after year, the 20s are no better, have they got to wait until their old to maybe play 1sts here ??? Put yourself in their shoes as they could play cup somewhere else and be winning and coached better in a cup side and the good players could be making their debut as well.

 

[StuBoot]

Great stuff Harry, but we do promote kids if they are ready and local. Choc, Kingy etc and even Tooves. We all know Tom and Jake T are pretty close and so is Gutho. Theyt promoted Jesse. Charlie Taylor is a bit away from 1st grade. Kids like Knight aew doing well. Chee Kam was a big money flop so far and that would frustrate locals but it was thought we was going to be a gun.

I'm not sure of too many 18-20 year olds playing first grade with their local club? The boys from Newcastle do stand out.

All the teams are doing it. If Manly don't want to give them a run and get them used to it thats fine as other clubs will as the talented kids will end up making their debuts somewhere else. Which is ashame.
What I am hearing Some of these talented players won't be back next year anyway.
Knight, Hoppa and Taylor should be getting some runs in 1sts now, put Taylor on the wing and with our great halves combination and centres with his speed he will be blitzing in the tries and Hoppa and Knight giving them a go as Lock / second row

All the teams are doing it?
Well good for them, some are doing it out of necessity due to injuries and some are doing it because they've got no one better.

We gave Gifty and Kite the tap on the shoulder and look at the perceived rumblings that are going on.

Can you imagine saying to Snake, Jorge or Lyon "guys, can you play reggies this week because we'd like to see how these young guys go in your place" ? Yep, that'd go well.

So, who do we drop to give Hoppa and Knight a go? Choc, Horo, T-Red, Ferris?

To bring up a player just to give them a run because of rumblings they may leave for perceived greener pastures is ridiculous.

I can't remember a player that has been promoted to First Grade over the past few years - Gutho, Jake T, Sao, Hiku - that had a shocker so they wait till they know they're ready. Would be nothing worse for a young bloke to get a chance and then turn in a shocker never to be seen again.

If we were mid table then yes, maybe give them a shot but we haven't been mid table for at least 7-8 years so we must be doing something right.

Surely they can see that spots will open up in the next year or two but this current generation and their managers want it now.

 

[The Who]

Stories today about the young guns from the Riff (Moylan) Newcastle (the Mata'utia brothers), Tigers (Brooks) expecting to be given massive contract upgrades or else they will leave...
It's a cycle that these relatively unsuccessful clubs will now face, just as we've had following the stellar successes of so many of our young players over the past decade.
Poor performing clubs give youngsters a chance because they have no alternative, then get into salary cap issues when these players show promise and opposition clubs come calling with fat chequebooks.
We've not been in that position for the past decade.

 

[mike walker]

G'day all,You also have to factor in salary cap restrictions as well,Penrith wanted to play Moylan but couldn't,Canberra have similar issues now and several other clubs also so it may not always be possible to reward a young bloke no matter how deserving with a taste of 1st grade.
cheers mike

 

[Bradza]

If I could 'like' StuBoot's post 5 times I would!

As Freddy Mercury would say,
'I want it all, and I want it now!'

 

[Harry]

G'day all,You also have to factor in salary cap restrictions as well,Penrith wanted to play Moylan but couldn't,Canberra have similar issues now and several other clubs also so it may not always be possible to reward a young bloke no matter how deserving with a taste of 1st grade.
cheers mike

You are spot on Mike. Its not just a case if a junior say from Manly is ready as he probably is but whether they can afford to fit him under their salary cap. The minimum salary for a 1st grader is $60 000 and a club who is under salary cap restrictions would rather play a player in their cup side who is already in the 1st grade squad.

 

[Bearfax]

Another asset I noticed Gutherson had in one of the rep games was vision. He could turn out like Lyon. His distribution was spot on. He's got a good head for the game and is destined in my mind for full back or in the centres for Manly if we can hold him. I beginning to think Tom Terrific could be a very good centre as well. He stared in that position in the reps. Gives young Taylor a spot at f/b if he comes through though I understand Albert Hopoate is a gun fullback, even though he's about 3-4 years from firsts

 

[Harry]

Another asset I noticed Gutherson had in one of the rep games was vision. He could turn out like Lyon. His distribution was spot on. He's got a good head for the game and is destined in my mind for full back or in the centres for Manly if we can hold him. I beginning to think Tom Terrific could be a very good centre as well. He stared in that position in the reps. Gives young Taylor a spot at f/b if he comes through though I understand Albert Hopoate is a gun fullback, even though he's about 3-4 years from firsts

I think young Tom could fill out and in a few years and might end up in the backrow like his brother and like Liam Knight who has a similar build. I would have kept Taylor as the 20s fullback as they were winning with him there and put Tom as centre. But There are limited spots in the backline at the club and at fullback, with some good young fullbacks coming through and I don't know how many 20s players will be back next year as some won't be.