Passion for the club

[master blaster]

Last weekend I watched Ricky Stuart almost in tears on the sidelines watching Papalii do his stuff at the end, and then how highly he spoke of him in the press conference. At first I thought it was cringe worthy how he was on the sideline, but on reflection, the passion he has for the Raiders shines through immensely, and it seems to be rubbing through onto the squad as a whole, and you even have guys who he has had issues with on board and pulling in one direction.

Now to move this around to where I relate it to Manly. Our last golden era, Des and Toovey on the coaching staff were Manly through and through, if anything happened to the players, Des is first one there in their corner and publicly batting for them in the media. Max Delmege, couldn’t question one bit his love for the club. All players had complete buy in and loved Des and the entire club pulled in one direction.

There has always been a theory about Manly only having success with Manly people, and I have never brought into it, I’ve always thought it should be the best person for the job regardless.

For me I think my viewpoint on this has completely changed. Not every coach needs to be carrying on like Ricky Stuart on the sideline, but I look at Seibold, and could I ever see him having that type of emotion and passion in him if Jake had an afternoon like that ? No I can’t. I don’t see anything in him that gives the squad anything to buy into whole heartedly, that isn’t saying he is a bad bloke, he just doesn’t seem to inspire, and none of the assistants have it in them either. The current owners, they tip money into the joint, but is there ever anything more coming from them that suggests the club is anything more than the plaything to them ? They certainly haven’t been shy of knifing club legends in the back

We look at the DCE saga, and we will never know the reasons why, but we have the guy at our club in Josh Papaliis shoes, and he can’t wait to get out of the joint, why ? I’m not marking him innocent in eroding of Manly culture either, but why does he so desperately want out of a joint he can hold all the records at ?

I’m sure people can point at Des in 2011 as part of starting this downward spiral as well, and it may be a fair point, but what pushed him in that direction ? That’s another question with many answers that we will probably never know which one is correct

So to round this off, how do we get back to installing the Manly DNA back into the joint ? Personally I have absolutely no idea lol. Penn is a known quantity so we know what we get there. Mestrov doesn’t inspire me at all, listening to him on the podcasts with James Graham last year, he was more about pulling the likes of Penrith down a level, rather than striving to push Manly up to that level. Coaching wise, Seibold isn’t it for me, but who is out there that has that Manly passion to inspire the players ? I don’t see any obvious option immediately, in the future Jake may be a great option to have coming through the coaching ranks

When I look at all the above, the current way we are playing, what we have in terms of promising players coming through, especially in the forwards, things are looking decidedly bleak. The Warriors recruitment and retention boss was on the radio here a couple of weeks back publicly laying out their plan for the next 5 years and where they are looking to go as a club, and it was a great listen. I wish I had something like that from us that we could actually hold onto with some hope

Going back to the topic title, passion for the club, mine has declined rapidly in recent times. The result good or bad doesn’t have the same emotion in it anymore, Can anybody lift me back up ?

Great post Kiwi, I am with you mate, I have known you for a while and I know the passion you have or had for the club my friend. We have had times in the past when things were down but we fought our way back to the top but we havent had that spirit and fight for a long long time. Can we get it back, who know,s but it has to start soon, again great post mate

 

[Waz13]

This is Ricky's 12th year at the Raiders and they have still won nothing. They've made the finals 5 times and missed them 6 times. Any Manly coach (ex-player or not) with that record would have been sacked years ago and I'm not sure that many on Silvertails would be praising the coach for jumping around on the sidelines.

It's the results that matter. The sooner we start continually making finals and challenging for a premiership again the happier we will all be.

Rick is a bit of a polarizing figure as well. My mate is a raiders fan and has wanted him axed for years. Can’t stand the bloke. They are going well currently so all is well. Not always been that way. It’s all about winning. As @BOZO would say when the winning starts the whinging stops! Or words to that effect.

 

[Waz13]

I’m sorry but it’s ridiculous to suggest some of these old players like Brett Stewart or Watmough would come in and do a great job as head coach simply because they are passionate for the club. Coaching an NRL club is a complex job of sports science, mixed personalities, football strategy, recruitment and media management.

Inexperienced coaches without the pedigree never work out.

That’s not to say we couldn’t use a bit more of a Manly vibe in the coaching staff, but head coach is a different beast.

Agree. Have wondered how Matt ballin is going. He’s served an apprenticeship under a few different styles of head coach now. Kevvie, Madge, Billy. He might be an interesting option in future.

Wonder about the what if factor re Des staying on and bringing Hannay through as well. Not that I think Des was a great option to keep around but more re bringing Hannay through.

 

[Brookie1973]

Hate the raiders and hate Ricky. Something false about the guy. Likes to project his “passion” by constantly parading on the sidelines so everyone can see him being “passionate”. Just trying to mask his lack of nous as a coach. If he’s such a great coach, how come the raiders have one of the worst defenses in the comp? They are classic flat track bullies who have benefitted from an extremely favourable draw, including titans twice, away games against warriors and Penrith at neutral venues, no short turnarounds etc etc. Now everyone thinks he’s a great development coach because he decided to raid the lower grades at Parra and other clubs, and got lucky with a few cast offs, like weekes. Hasn’t won anything in 22 years and you don’t win comps in June.

Also, best mates with Paul Kent.

 

[The '47ers]

What about Brent Kite?

Didn't he go loopy or something?

 

[BOZO]

Rick is a bit of a polarizing figure as well. My mate is a raiders fan and has wanted him axed for years. Can’t stand the bloke. They are going well currently so all is well. Not always been that way. It’s all about winning. As @BOZO would say when the winning starts the whinging stops! Or words to that effect.

When the Winning starts the Whinging stops indeed feathered friend
Its is al about Winning with Passionate Manly supporters
Manly supporters have high standards and the higher the standards the higher the stakes
At Manly we are not good losers and we make no apologies about that
At Manly we are proud Winners
At Manly Losing sucks and Losers Suck
At Manly The Manly Way is all about Winning

The moral of the story
Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser

 

[Disco]

Correct, but over those 12 years, how many times have you looked at a Raiders squad and thought “these guys should be up there challenging”, most years I look at them and think bottom 4, and most years have punched above their weight. It’s a squad that’s always been bereft of genuine game breaking superstars and hard to recruit too

Guess where I’m looking at them as an example is that you can see some passion for the place on the sidelines, you can see a clear recruitment and retention strategy (England has served them well, and they’ve gone out and signed a bunch of talented youngsters) and you can see that all meshing together into a positive future. Easy to just cherry pick the top sides but you can see the clear direction Bulldogs and Warriors are heading in as well, again the fans have something to look at and be excited over

What do we have ? A couple of young halves we hope will come good, and hopes that saving money on a few old people might land us a good signing.

I mean, you start saying their roster has never been that strong but then state how good they have been with recruitment????

I'd argue part of Rickys remit with 12 years in the role is to effectively manage his roster.

I'm neither Ricky is great nor Ricky is crap but I think he can highlight that a coach is just part of the equation.

He has been a constant and the Raiders have made GFs and finished bottom 4.

I think we often overestimate how much a coach factors into success.......and don't get me wrong they are important.

But if conditions arent right, even a great coach could finish bottom 4 and likewise in the right conditions a relatively average coach could win a premiership

 

[BOZO]

But if conditions arent right, even a great coach could finish bottom 4 and likewise in the right conditions a relatively average coach could win a premiership

Yeh Nah ......
Great coaches are Great Because Great coaches have been known to over achieve in any conditions

 

[Woodsie]

My per

Personally, I'll be surprised if our coach sees out his contract. It will be a massive fail if we don't make the finals this year after virtually being unaffected by origin. Is one finals appearance in two years enough to hold onto the position? I imagine his performance at Brisbane will also be a consideration when it comes time for Tony Mestrov and Scott Penn to make their decision.

Trent Barrett is the worst Manly coach I have seen when taking into account squad strength. If we continue on our present course, Anthony Seibold might join him on the losers podium. Hopefully he can find a way to inspire the team and turn both ours and his fortunes around.

I'm also disappointed with our season ... but we have been affected by the lack of forward momentum and field position ... completely brought about by the lack of props ... the loss of Paseka, aloai , sipley, Jake, Lodge and TKO for many games has left us struggling. That is 6 props missing a lot of games.

Without this our Halfs become largely ineffective ... and our backline hampered. The best game plans and coaching become irrelevant without grunt.

For me, the litmus test for Seibold is what he does with the first bit of salary cap space he has had since coming here when DCE goes and the 'urbo's take reduced contracts. Up until now he has only had spare change to spend ... and with that I think he has done okay with budget buys TKO and Jazz.

If the great unwashed horde of Silvertail numbnuts know we need a couple of prime meat eating studs in the pigs ... I'm certain it is no secret to Seibold and Mestrov .... but I would like to know how he would have got them without any cap money.

and yes, I have read all the posts saying we should have all these young hungry kids ... but that is just wishful fantasy .. would they have contributed more than TKO and Jazz?

The jury is still out on Seibold for mine ... the next 12 months will be conclusive one way or the other ...

 

[Buck]

Last weekend I watched Ricky Stuart almost in tears on the sidelines watching Papalii do his stuff at the end, and then how highly he spoke of him in the press conference. At first I thought it was cringe worthy how he was on the sideline, but on reflection, the passion he has for the Raiders shines through immensely, and it seems to be rubbing through onto the squad as a whole, and you even have guys who he has had issues with on board and pulling in one direction.

Now to move this around to where I relate it to Manly. Our last golden era, Des and Toovey on the coaching staff were Manly through and through, if anything happened to the players, Des is first one there in their corner and publicly batting for them in the media. Max Delmege, couldn’t question one bit his love for the club. All players had complete buy in and loved Des and the entire club pulled in one direction.

There has always been a theory about Manly only having success with Manly people, and I have never brought into it, I’ve always thought it should be the best person for the job regardless.

For me I think my viewpoint on this has completely changed. Not every coach needs to be carrying on like Ricky Stuart on the sideline, but I look at Seibold, and could I ever see him having that type of emotion and passion in him if Jake had an afternoon like that ? No I can’t. I don’t see anything in him that gives the squad anything to buy into whole heartedly, that isn’t saying he is a bad bloke, he just doesn’t seem to inspire, and none of the assistants have it in them either. The current owners, they tip money into the joint, but is there ever anything more coming from them that suggests the club is anything more than the plaything to them ? They certainly haven’t been shy of knifing club legends in the back

We look at the DCE saga, and we will never know the reasons why, but we have the guy at our club in Josh Papaliis shoes, and he can’t wait to get out of the joint, why ? I’m not marking him innocent in eroding of Manly culture either, but why does he so desperately want out of a joint he can hold all the records at ?

I’m sure people can point at Des in 2011 as part of starting this downward spiral as well, and it may be a fair point, but what pushed him in that direction ? That’s another question with many answers that we will probably never know which one is correct

So to round this off, how do we get back to installing the Manly DNA back into the joint ? Personally I have absolutely no idea lol. Penn is a known quantity so we know what we get there. Mestrov doesn’t inspire me at all, listening to him on the podcasts with James Graham last year, he was more about pulling the likes of Penrith down a level, rather than striving to push Manly up to that level. Coaching wise, Seibold isn’t it for me, but who is out there that has that Manly passion to inspire the players ? I don’t see any obvious option immediately, in the future Jake may be a great option to have coming through the coaching ranks

When I look at all the above, the current way we are playing, what we have in terms of promising players coming through, especially in the forwards, things are looking decidedly bleak. The Warriors recruitment and retention boss was on the radio here a couple of weeks back publicly laying out their plan for the next 5 years and where they are looking to go as a club, and it was a great listen. I wish I had something like that from us that we could actually hold onto with some hope

Going back to the topic title, passion for the club, mine has declined rapidly in recent times. The result good or bad doesn’t have the same emotion in it anymore, Can anybody lift me back up ?

Kiwi Eagle, re your last paragraph. I know exactly how you feel. I've been a supporter since 1972 & had never waivered in my support or advocacy for the club & its personnel. In recent years I have struggled to garner that same passion regardless of a win, draw or loss. Something needs to change.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

I mean, you start saying their roster has never been that strong but then state how good they have been with recruitment????

Don’t really understand why both of those can’t be true ? Hodgson, Whitehead, Bateman, Nicholl-Klokstad etc were mainly unheralded signings, but they performed extremely well for them and got them to within a Ben Cummins special of winning that elusive premiership in 2019. Overall you look at that squad on paper that season and you immediately find at least half a dozen units that should be stronger than them

Looking at the current state they stepped back a couple of years ago, went for a youth policy and have stockpiled young talent that is all coming through together and the future looking promising for them in that regard

The main point isn’t about if Ricky Stuart is a great coach or not, it is about a club that looks to have a strong mentality instilled in them from top to bottom, they have made moves with a purpose in mind and a direction that fans can look at and buy into. I can see the same at the Bulldogs, and the same at the Warriors. Can even see a map of what the Tigers are looking to do moving forward. The Panthers were awful, Gus announced a plan, and each year you could see it building

Currently I can’t see anything like that at Manly, and it concerns me. Saw the NSW 19s named early, no Manly players in there. Lehi Hopoate came from nowhere, do we have another half dozen of those ? Or will we keep rolling out guys like Lodge who nobody wanted and has come back 20kg heavier

 

[maxta]

I feel that losing is only a part of the issue effecting the passion.
I think it's the way they are losing.....at times it looks like the players lack passion, leading by big margins and then frittering away these leads without a fight.
There is truth in the fact the owners seem to lack any "genuine" interest in the club, which send negative vibes from the top, never a good thing for any sporting team across the world.
The coaching side I'm not Sold on, as there seems to be a soft underbelly when the going gets tough, a very good indicator of a situation where the players lack accountability and the coaching staff have lost the dessing room...at least to a degree.... I do find it a copout to 100% blame ANY coach, as these are professional athletes who should hold the integrity within themselves to meet standards also.
When all these things morph into 1 ugly pineapple and the poor losses follow, it's very easy to lose interest/passion and let's be real....in seasons Manly have been flying and more importantly, the players are bleeding for that emblem on the jersey....it's far easier to feel pumped up and excited about where we are going and look forward to each game a heck of a lot more.
I'll confess my mood leading into the Knights game was quite sombre due to the factors raised, which is unlike my usual self...so the loss as terrible as it was, seemed half expected...even at halftime where the fans knew Knights would could out far harder, yet the players seemed stunned and ambushed....would not happen against the likes of Watmough, Gift, Matai, foz and Snake and not simply because they are superior players....they had the determined attitudes missing from this current team and to be direct...the entire club lacks it.....this was the "Manly Way" I had faith in and yes...it certainly lifted my passion also !!

 

[Raven Mad Manly Fan]

For Manly, the Penns are the problem

Yep, 100%. All of our problems stem from this. The decline of our once great club coincide with the moment Penn got total control of the club. The heydays we once enjoyed will never return for as long this bloke is the sole owner.

 

[47MVEagle]

I think the clubs who are succeeding now are doing so because they've stayed true to a plan they implemented.

Ciraldo's start at the dogs was pretty ordinary, so was Fitzgibbon's at the sharks, but both clubs stood strong & now we see the Bulldogs as a contender for the premiership this year & the Sharks are a respected opponent (although their season this year has been a bit up & down).

I don't know what it's like behind closed doors at Manly, but on here, as soon as we have a loss early in the season, calls for the coach's head start up.

Someone else mentioned that we essentially lost a generation of potential "Manly DNA" coaches with the bad blood between the club & our golden era team (Lyon, Matai, Watmough, the Stewarts etc) with really only Watmough & Brett Stewart having come back to the club in coaching roles. I don't know exactly what went down between those players & the club, but the fact that Lyon & Matai have never been involved with the club since suggests there was a lot of bad blood there.

We need a rebuild but we also need patience to let it grow - this need for instant results is what kills clubs, forever chasing that quick fix to keep everyone happy.

Maybe Mestrov is the start of this rebuild - he's certainly achieved more than about 8 other blokes before him (& has outlasted all of them too) & maybe, just maybe, this is the end of an era that we now have a great opportunity to rebuild & flourish from, with DCE going & the re-signing of Turbo & Jurbo on smaller contracts.

 

[Eagledare2dream]

Don’t really understand why both of those can’t be true ? Hodgson, Whitehead, Bateman, Nicholl-Klokstad etc were mainly unheralded signings, but they performed extremely well for them and got them to within a Ben Cummins special of winning that elusive premiership in 2019. Overall you look at that squad on paper that season and you immediately find at least half a dozen units that should be stronger than them

Looking at the current state they stepped back a couple of years ago, went for a youth policy and have stockpiled young talent that is all coming through together and the future looking promising for them in that regard

The main point isn’t about if Ricky Stuart is a great coach or not, it is about a club that looks to have a strong mentality instilled in them from top to bottom, they have made moves with a purpose in mind and a direction that fans can look at and buy into. I can see the same at the Bulldogs, and the same at the Warriors. Can even see a map of what the Tigers are looking to do moving forward. The Panthers were awful, Gus announced a plan, and each year you could see it building

Currently I can’t see anything like that at Manly, and it concerns me. Saw the NSW 19s named early, no Manly players in there. Lehi Hopoate came from nowhere, do we have another half dozen of those ? Or will we keep rolling out guys like Lodge who nobody wanted and has come back 20kg heavier

No Manly player's in the men squads either, sad sad sad. Remember the days 80s 90s when half of NSW & QLD team were Manly boys. I was having trouble picking a team to go for usually the team with the most Manly players, now I just hope they bash the crap out of each other.

 

[Raven Mad Manly Fan]

Aside from that, in the past it's true we have had former players become coaches, Des being a massive success, and Tooves showing you need more than just being a Manly person, because no-one is more Manly than Tooves but it didn't work out.

Really? You don't think the Toovey years were a success?? How so? He got us to the 2013 grandfinal, and had it not been for those Rorters and that bastard referee we would have won our 9th premiership. Toovey had us playing finals football for each year that he was the coach except for the last year where we finished one spot outside the top 8 and then he got sacked. And despite Penn's claims that "it's a results-based business" we all know the real reason Toovey was sacked was because he was closer aligned with Max Delmege than with Penn. Because had it really been about results we never would have employed Barrett, and neither would we have persisted with Barrett for as long as we did.

 

[Raven Mad Manly Fan]

Forget about a supposed “coach” with a passion for the club. NOTHING will change until we find an OWNER with a true passion for the club matched by the financial clout to make it happen.

Yep. He certainly aint no Russell Crowe or Nick Politis.

 

[Raven Mad Manly Fan]

This is Ricky's 12th year at the Raiders and they have still won nothing. They've made the finals 5 times and missed them 6 times.

They also made it to the 2019 GrandFinal against the Rorters where they were dudded by that infamous 6-again call.

 

[Woodsie]

People tend to stay the course when their is either consistency or improvement in a teams performance. Ciraldo and Fitzy have maintained a consistent level of performance or improved year on year. We certainly don't look like doing the same in Seibolds third year in charge. That is when fans and the media begin questioning whether a coach is the right man for the job. The drums are getting louder everywhere unfortunately and that is a sign that our coach is in real trouble.

You seem to discount the fact that both Ciraldo and Fitzy had large war chests to spend, nd could effect change quickly ... Seibold has had only spare change to tinker with ...

Now with news of an imminent Medical retirement for Josh aloiai ... the mettle of Mestrov and Seibold will be tested in the recruitment stakes

 

[Disco]

You do make some valid points, however I disagree with your analysis whereby you diminish the role a coach plays in bringing a club success. I cannot think of many top coaches who finished bottom four, nor is there an abundance of average coaches who won premierships logged in my memory.

Not trying to diminish, coaches are hugely important, arguably the most important, but they are still a component in a larger picture.

As for top coaches finishing bottom 4, depends on your definition.

Hasler has finished bottom 4
Robinson has
Cleary has
Stuart has
Sheens has
Gibson has
Chris Anderson has
Warren Ryan has
Bennett you got me, but he has finished 5th last 3 times and one of those times it was a mere 15 points on F/A that held onto 5th last.
Gould and Fulton the same, both have finished 5th last.

Bellamy also has on account of cheating.