Happy Australia Day

[Mark from Brisbane]

Geez folks - this thread took a dramatic turn since I ducked out for some ...... life. I didn't think anything I said was particularly controversial. It's just my view (for the reasons noted) that a so called indigenous voice for indigenous issues is something I support. I don't try to be rude, I don't pretend to know better than indigenous people and I don't pretend to know what life is like in an indigenous community. Certainly regional communities. I also have indigenous friends but I don't feel that makes me an expert on the concerns they may or may not have. And I certainly don't think one indigenous issue is the same for all. I also don't believe that I'm a do gooder because I feel the way I do about First Nations people ........ of any country. Pick a country where First Nations people have been colonised and you will see similar issues to our own country. Can this be a coincidence?? I'm not suggesting for a second that the "Voice" will guarantee a remedy to anything in these communities. And I agree @Mark from Brisbane that radical voices (and I'm thinking the 2 people mentioned by someone - Price and Thorpe who are at either end of the spectrum) will get anyone anywhere. This country predictably functions from the so called centre and I wouldn't see the Voice as anything different. I wouldn't call Noel Pearson (a go to man for Tony Abbott during his PMship and Marcia Langton (just to mention two indigenous .... academics?) as radicals. But I'm thinking maybe I should just write my views on our footy team. Take it easy all.

As always , my comments are views , never disparaging anyone else for different ones to my own, and certainly never yours.

My scepticism of “ the voice “ is you just know who will get chosen , the ones who are loudest and profess widely that their views are the only ones that count, yes people like Thorpe & co.

I do not have a magic fix , but I do know some things that will help , and I have mentioned these.

More money isn’t the answer , better use of the current 30 plus billion ( for 4% of the population) is needed , the waste is enormous, the stories I could tell you about what goes on out there is mind boggling.

If I thought the real people , doing good things were the ones going to be chosen I’d consider voting yes , but I just know the ones they’ll pick , and for that reason it’s a gigantic no from me.

 

[Seagles68]

As always , my comments are views , never disparaging anyone else for different ones to my own, and certainly never yours.

My scepticism of “ the voice “ is you just know who will get chosen , the ones who are loudest and profess widely that their views are the only ones that count, yes people like Thorpe & co.

I do not have a magic fix , but I do know some things that will help , and I have mentioned these.

More money isn’t the answer , better use of the current 30 plus billion ( for 4% of the population) is needed , the waste is enormous, the stories I could tell you about what goes on out there is mind boggling.

If I thought the real people , doing good things were the ones going to be chosen I’d consider voting yes , but I just know the ones they’ll pick , and for that reason it’s a gigantic no from me.

No worries Mark. On the off chance that there is a yes vote, I'm certainly banking on resources being used effectively. I'm not delusional enough to think there won't still be waste (govts of all stripes waste enough on all sorts of things as it is) but sometimes you have to take a leap of ........ I don't want to say faith coz that could lead to a whole other topic .... hope. All I know is that something has to change and I'm buggered if I know what the answer is given that no Govt has had the answer to date.

 

[Eagles4Life]

there is no problem in concept. just need to understand what it entails and if it will have any impact on other Australians mate… we also need to understand how it will be applied… most of the discussion on this is inflamed by the ambiguity..

Thanks @Red Pill I agree that we "need to understand what it entails and if it will have any impact on other Australians" However, it is my understanding that we are voting only on the constitutional amendment – the principle that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be given a say on laws and policies that affect them. We are simply not voting on any detailed Voice Model, as his been suggested in this thread.

At @manlyfan76 suggestion, I have downloaded the 280-page Final Report found below, to get a better perspective on the details that are not yet clear to me.

https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-co-design-process-final-report_1.pdf

From first reading it appears that key aspects of the application process are laid out in Chapter 4: Implementation considerations, reflections and recommendations 4.1 Implementation of the Indigenous Voice.

Here also is a summary of what is incorporated into the report, in terms of both content and design. This speaks to both intent and impact on other Australians.

"This Final Report builds on the proposals in the Indigenous Voice Co-design Process Interim Report to the Australian Government, available at voice.niaa.gov.au

The preliminary sections introduce this Final Report. They include the Foreword, Executive
Summary and visual guides to the key elements of the final proposals.

Chapters 1 and 2 detail the proposals for a principles-based framework for Local & Regional Voices and a National Voice, respectively. These chapters explore how stage two feedback influenced the final proposals and explain the intersections the National Voice and Local & Regional Voices would have with each other and with a range of stakeholders and existing arrangements.

Chapter 3 details the stage two consultation and engagement process, including detailed
statistical information and broad insights. This chapter also explains the process undertaken
by the co-design groups to consider feedback and addresses additional themes that
emerged from consultation and engagement.

Chapter 4 details a range of transition and implementation considerations, including the potential pathways to new arrangements, includes the Senior Advisory Group’s reflections on the co-design
process and deliberations and describes the recommendations."

 

[Eagles4Life]

Question for @Red Pill et al
Why is Australia the only First-World nation with a colonial history that doesn't provide constitutional recognition for its First Nations people? Paraphrased from statement by Linda Burnley 2019

Fact Checked below

We fact checked Linda Burney's claim on constitutional recognition. Here's what we found

Opposition spokeswoman for Indigenous Australians Linda Burney says the Australian constitution is the only one among first world nations with colonial histories that does not recognise its first people. RMIT ABC Fact Check investigates.

www.abc.net.au

The upcoming referendum is focussed ONLY on delivering a constitutional amendment that will provide constitutional recognition to Australia's First Nations people. I find it difficult to believe that any fair-minded Australian would outright reject the "principle that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be given a say on laws and policies that affect them." The Voice is simply the mechanism to implement details for this principle constitutionally.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

No worries Mark. On the off chance that there is a yes vote, I'm certainly banking on resources being used effectively. I'm not delusional enough to think there won't still be waste (govts of all stripes waste enough on all sorts of things as it is) but sometimes you have to take a leap of ........ I don't want to say faith coz that could lead to a whole other topic .... hope. All I know is that something has to change and I'm buggered if I know what the answer is given that no Govt has had the answer to date.

Honestly , I don’t think any government has the answer as I think the answer has to come from indigenous Australia itself.

The chip needs to come off their shoulder.

They need to recognise that was transpired 250 years ago was not caused by current Australians.

They need to gain some pride on their lives , not just play the race card the whole time.

Does racism still exist ?? Sadly yes but they play a part in that as well.

Drugs / Alcohol, they can’t handle it , it’s killing their culture , the do gooders claim civil liberties and so it’s a free for all ( Alice Springs for example ) , their leaders need to show some leadership and demand changes.

There needs to be a **** load of money spent on aboriginal employment, so training , employment & education subsidies, chuck whatever you can at it , it’s bloody important.

And the biggest problem ( caused by drugs / alcohol) is paedophilia , it’s rife , that’s why the kids are on the streets it’s safer.

But seriously, I firmly believe nothing will change , voice ( no voice ) ,until aboriginal Australia wants it themselves.

 

[Red Pill]

Thanks @Red Pill I agree that we "need to understand what it entails and if it will have any impact on other Australians" However, it is my understanding that we are voting only on the constitutional amendment – the principle that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be given a say on laws and policies that affect them. We are simply not voting on any detailed Voice Model, as his been suggested in this thread.

At @manlyfan76 suggestion, I have downloaded the 280-page Final Report found below, to get a better perspective on the details that are not yet clear to me.

https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-co-design-process-final-report_1.pdf

From first reading it appears that key aspects of the application process are laid out in Chapter 4: Implementation considerations, reflections and recommendations 4.1 Implementation of the Indigenous Voice.

Here also is a summary of what is incorporated into the report, in terms of both content and design. This speaks to both intent and impact on other Australians.

"This Final Report builds on the proposals in the Indigenous Voice Co-design Process Interim Report to the Australian Government, available at voice.niaa.gov.au

The preliminary sections introduce this Final Report. They include the Foreword, Executive
Summary and visual guides to the key elements of the final proposals.

Chapters 1 and 2 detail the proposals for a principles-based framework for Local & Regional Voices and a National Voice, respectively. These chapters explore how stage two feedback influenced the final proposals and explain the intersections the National Voice and Local & Regional Voices would have with each other and with a range of stakeholders and existing arrangements.

Chapter 3 details the stage two consultation and engagement process, including detailed
statistical information and broad insights. This chapter also explains the process undertaken
by the co-design groups to consider feedback and addresses additional themes that
emerged from consultation and engagement.

Chapter 4 details a range of transition and implementation considerations, including the potential pathways to new arrangements, includes the Senior Advisory Group’s reflections on the co-design
process and deliberations and describes the recommendations."

Thanks mate for sharing all this detail. I found this UNSW paper quite useful in determining what we are voting on. It states for example:
“Australians are not being asked to vote on a specific Voice model. Rather the Voice will be determined by parliament with the input of the community and the Voice itself, and will evolve and change over time.”
This is in reference to the 280 page document you are referencing.
This is still ambiguous in my opinion.
The paper however also suggests this “ the intention of the Voice is to further the self-determination of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples within the Australian state, by giving them greater voice and control in matters that affect them”
Imo this scope still needs to be clearer. e.g. does the voice have a say on budgets? which ultimately impact all Australians. Does the voice have scope to recommend laws that may impose additional land taxes upon other Australians. ( this is just a random example I have no idea if this is realistic or not) . But it could be argued it has impact upon indigenous Australians.thus in scope.
Regardless Australians should not be expected to read a 280 page document to properly understand what they are voting on.

What do we know about the Voice to Parliament design, and what do we still need to know?

www.unsw.edu.au

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Thanks mate for sharing all this detail. I found this UNSW paper quite useful in determining what we are voting on. It states for example:
“Australians are not being asked to vote on a specific Voice model. Rather the Voice will be determined by parliament with the input of the community and the Voice itself, and will evolve and change over time.”
This is in reference to the 280 page document you are referencing.
This is still ambiguous in my opinion.
The paper however also suggests this “ the intention of the Voice is to further the self-determination of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples within the Australian state, by giving them greater voice and control in matters that affect them”
Imo this scope still needs to be clearer. e.g. does the voice have a say on budgets? which ultimately impact all Australians. Does the voice have scope to recommend laws that may impose additional land taxes upon other Australians. ( this is just a random example I have no idea if this is realistic or not) . But it could be argued it has impact upon indigenous Australians.thus in scope.
Regardless Australians should not be expected to read a 280 page document to properly understand what they are voting on.

What do we know about the Voice to Parliament design, and what do we still need to know?

www.unsw.edu.au

It’s all just wishy washy , vote yes because it’s “ the vibe “.

Sorry I need a lot more detail before I’ll commit, and believe me I’d love a solution just as much as anyone else.

But there’s just no way I’m giving a government ( regardless of party) carte Blanche to do whatever they think.

We need a proper plan

The Voice will be as follows

Xxxxxxx. Yyyyyyyyy.

And people will be chosen like this

Zzzzzzzz Xxxxxxx

And the voice will simply be that , a voice for input only , without any powers to change laws or institute change.

Spell it out , not in 280 pages but on one page.

And tell us more than “ it’s the vibe “.

 

[Red Pill]

It’s all just wishy washy , vote yes because it’s “ the vibe “.

Sorry I need a lot more detail before I’ll commit, and believe me I’d love a solution just as much as anyone else.

But there’s just no way I’m giving a government ( regardless of party) carte Blanche to do whatever they think.

We need a proper plan

The Voice will be as follows

Xxxxxxx. Yyyyyyyyy.

And people will be chosen like this

Zzzzzzzz Xxxxxxx

And the voice will simply be that , a voice for input only , without any powers to change laws or institute change.

Spell it out , not in 280 pages but on one page.

And tell us more than “ it’s the vibe “.

100% agree mate. You have done a very good job of communicating this through your life experiences etc… no one on this forum is saying that they do want to see improvements in outcomes for indigenous Australians….

 

[Woodsie]

I have a dream ....

That one day in Australia, the indigenous peoples have full citizenship of this great country, that they enjoy the same rights and protections under law as every other Australian ... that they are entitled to vote and elect those politicians that they believe will be best for them, like every other Australian ... that they also have, and honour the same obligations and responsibilities as every other Australian ...

A time when there are no separate laws for some based on race ... a time when all Australians are treated equally ..

Oh ... wait a minute ...

 

[manly al]

Emphasis seems to be getting some form or confirmation of recognition[ and has no doubt been alluded to on here ] enshrined into the constitution . Really can not see a problem with that . Also from my admittedly limited insight , no legislative capacity or decision making into allocating funds or instigating programes . Really just seems quite symbolic more then anything else with some direct input also part of the arrangement . Realistically a big country with diverse issues and individual situations in all regions . Anyway the referenda is not due until latter this year so plenty of opportunity for ideally constructive advocating for or against or indifferent . Guess that if it is 2 / 3 of the states in favor and 2 / 3 's of the overall vote , maybe some chance of getting up , 2 / 3 's of individual states vote , would probably be unlikely then . Personally will not lose any sleep if it does not get up , if that is the case just hope that some of its opponents or other people who do have some general reservations can come up with something better to improve or help improve matters and just not negativity

 

[Red Pill]

Emphasis seems to be getting some form or confirmation of recognition[ and has no doubt been alluded to on here ] enshrined into the constitution . Really can not see a problem with that . Also from my admittedly limited insight , no legislative capacity or decision making into allocating funds or instigating programes . Really just seems quite symbolic more then anything else with some direct input also part of the arrangement . Realistically a big country with diverse issues and individual situations in all regions . Anyway the referenda is not due until latter this year so plenty of opportunity for ideally constructive advocating for or against or indifferent . Guess that if it is 2 / 3 of the states in favor and 2 / 3 's of the overall vote , maybe some chance of getting up , 2 / 3 's of individual states vote , would probably be unlikely then . Personally will not lose any sleep if it does not get up , if that is the case just hope that some of its opponents or other people who do have some general reservations can come up with something better to improve or help improve matters and just not negativity

I hope your insights are correct mate. I am still unsure how this symbolism will address important issues impacting Indigenous communities such as much higher rates of family violence ect. There are reports that suggest statistics like this “ Indigenous females and males were 35 and 22 times as likely to be hospitalised due to family violence-related assaults as other Australian females and males, respectively.” We need to understand how this voice will address issues like this and will promote greater responsibility and ownership upon individuals in this space. We can’t blame colonialism etc for this behaviour…
Here is the source of the quote for anyone interested.

Family violence among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, Summary

@Family violence among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples@ presents information on the extent of violence (in particular family violence) in the Indigenous population, using existing...

www.aihw.gov.au

 

[Seagles68]

100% agree mate. You have done a very good job of communicating this through your life experiences etc… no one on this forum is saying that they do want to see improvements in outcomes for indigenous Australians….

I thought I was?

 

[Red Pill]

I thought I was?

You are good articulate communicator mate. Whilst I don’t always agree I feel very comfortable exchanging ideas and general dialogue. I have learned some things from your constructive inputs which again I do not always agree with…

 

[Seagles68]

You are good articulate communicator mate. Whilst I don’t always agree I feel very comfortable exchanging ideas and general dialogue. I have learned some things from your constructive inputs which again I do not always agree with…

To be honest, I was just having a gentle dig at what I thought was a typo in your post. You wrote that "no one on this forum is saying that they do want to see improvements in outcomes for indigenous Australians…." but maybe I was wrong. Oooops! I often re-read things I posted and then realise I made a typo and edit it coz you know, I'm anal retentive with things like that.

 

[BOZO]

I have a dream ....

That one day in Australia, the indigenous peoples have full citizenship of this great country, that they enjoy the same rights and protections under law as every other Australian ... that they are entitled to vote and elect those politicians that they believe will be best for them, like every other Australian ... that they also have, and honour the same obligations and responsibilities as every other Australian ...

A time when there are no separate laws for some based on race ... a time when all Australians are treated equally ..

Oh ... wait a minute ...

I like your Great Australian dream perspective feathered friend and I would like to add to it ....

That dream is over and has come to reality

It is now time to wake up accept and embrace the reality and move on

We can not change the past but we call all make our own future living happy together for the better and that I believe we have accomplished that dream

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

The one thing we all agree on is we want a better life for our indigenous community.

But as Ive said it’s a two way street , and I’m not sure one side of the equation is on board yet.

 

[BOZO]

If we are ever going to become a Republic

It the Great Cliffy for out first ever Great President of our Great Nation

 

[BOZO]

The one thing we all agree on is we want a better life for our indigenous community.

But as Ive said it’s a two way street , and I’m not sure one side of the equation is on board yet.

The Greatest Indigenous Soul of all Time Cliffy has embraced the change and changed the course of his life as one of the Greatest Australians on and of the sporting arena

He is a Great Role model Australian and an inspiration to all Australians

Great People do not divide their Nation....... Great people unite their Nation

And the Great Cliffy is our National Hero

 

[manly al]

I hope your insights are correct mate. I am still unsure how this symbolism will address important issues impacting Indigenous communities such as much higher rates of family violence ect. There are reports that suggest statistics like this “ Indigenous females and males were 35 and 22 times as likely to be hospitalised due to family violence-related assaults as other Australian females and males, respectively.” We need to understand how this voice will address issues like this and will promote greater responsibility and ownership upon individuals in this space. We can’t blame colonialism etc for this behaviour…
Here is the source of the quote for anyone interested.

Family violence among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, Summary

@Family violence among Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples@ presents information on the extent of violence (in particular family violence) in the Indigenous population, using existing...

www.aihw.gov.au

Certainly a few harmful and unfortunately what seems like self perpetuating cycles to find a better way to overcome . Maybe some more active role models and elders to encourage a better way also . Bottom line also without doubt the alcohol dependency syndrome . Need the best start in life with safe households and education obviously and ongoing pathways , sure that there have been plenty of initiatives for a long time now , Just have to try and make it even more relevant and instructive i guess .

 

[BOZO]

Certainly a few harmful and unfortunately what seems like self perpetuating cycles to find a better way to overcome . Maybe some more active role models and elders to encourage a better way also . Bottom line also without doubt the alcohol dependency syndrome . Need the best start in life with safe households and education obviously and ongoing pathways , sure that there have been plenty of initiatives for a long time now , Just have to try and make it even more relevant and instructive i guess .

As for alcohol , drugs , gambling addictions

We are all accountable for our own actions that lead to the life we live

This comfort zone mentality of blaming others for our own actions does not build the great character to achieve great things in life