Poll can you trust bloody humans?

[Brookie1973]

Interesting, Al!
There seems a widespread assumption and belief, going way back to ancient Greece, that it's only our civilisation that keeps a fragile rein on our true human nature,. Which busts out periodically to reveal our true colours.

In times of disaster panic and fear take over as we regress to the primitive instincts of apes, a war of all against all. People at heart are not good. This is even reflected in religious concepts such as original sin. And it’s why we need strong rules and strong leaders to keep us all safe.

Or… ???

Finally we can agree on something. Strong rules and strong rulers keep us all safe.

 

[BOZO]

Maybe I have I misunderstood you?
When you've often said everyone has their price, I took you to mean anyone will sell out their (club/mates/values??) if they are offered enough money?
Which would be putting self interest before others. Setting yourself up, or your own immediate family, at the expense of the wider community. Basically the more selfish 'planet B option?

Yes it was a misunderstanding as misunderstanding can be easily created when posting .
My perspective that everyone has a price means we all have our priorities , circumstances and needs in life but outside our needs we can still be generous to others

Manly of the $$$ Money people that prioritise wealth are some of greatest philanthropist

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Manly of the $$$ Money people that prioritise wealth are some of greatest philanthropist

Possibly someone who shares what little they have would be a 'greater' philanthropist than someone like Bill Gates, who has certainly donated many billions for important causes to help people ... yet still keeps at least 100 billion for himself. .. which must be his 'priorities circumstances and needs in life'.

What prompted all this was more the question, are humans 'naturally' or even ruthlessly selfish (planet B), or are we on the contrary more willing to help others, even strangers, and even at times against our own interests (planet A)? apparently the vast majority of people believe B, not A.

Of course, this in no way an original thought - I started reading a book questioning the scientific evidence for B (but I haven't got far so don't know how it ends yet) (!) and realised I sometimes assume B. Yet when I think of the many 1000s of interactions I've had with people, I've only been attacked a handful of times but I've been helped numerous times. Go figure.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Finally we can agree on something. Strong rules and strong rulers keep us all safe.

Sorry to disappoint. We agree on some Sea Eagles stuff but not on that

 

[Brookie1973]

Sorry to disappoint. We agree on some Sea Eagles stuff but not on that

I must have missed something in the translation. I thought I was agreeing with you. Not disappointed, just confused.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Strong rules and strong rulers keep us all safe

It’s a dangerous world, with plenty of real bad guys.

Planet B for you it seems?
In popular culture, and at base in modern political thinking, we homo sapiens are naturally selfish, violent, and aggressive. Therefore without strong states, laws, and institutions, we’d all be living in brutal chaos.

But this is now scientifically highly dubious, to the point new evidence suggests this is actually the opposite of our evolutionary history!!!

For over 95% of human existence we lived in small nomadic groups and valued cooperation and sharing and caring. The advent of agriculture began the increasingly complex, hierarchical and unequal societies we find ourselves in now.

If so ... it is the rules and institutions and 'strong leaders' that need to be changed! (Before they bring about our extinction, and we disappear from the earth just as all the other hominins have.

 

[Brookie1973]

Hunter-gatherers first launched violent raids at least 13,400 years ago

Skeletons from an ancient African cemetery bear the oldest known signs of small-scale warfare.

www.sciencenews.org

 

[BOZO]

Possibly someone who shares what little they have would be a 'greater' philanthropist than someone like Bill Gates, who has certainly donated many billions for important causes to help people ... yet still keeps at least 100 billion for himself. .. which must be his 'priorities circumstances and needs in life'.

What prompted all this was more the question, are humans 'naturally' or even ruthlessly selfish (planet B), or are we on the contrary more willing to help others, even strangers, and even at times against our own interests (planet A)? apparently the vast majority of people believe B, not A.

Of course, this in no way an original thought - I started reading a book questioning the scientific evidence for B (but I haven't got far so don't know how it ends yet) (!) and realised I sometimes assume B. Yet when I think of the many 1000s of interactions I've had with people, I've only been attacked a handful of times but I've been helped numerous times. Go figure.

What defines a caring giver of money , Rich or poor is not how much money they have to give .It is all about their caring intentions of giving because you can also have Rich or poor people that do not care of giving anything to any one in need .

One of the main contributing factors of giving People is that they stop what they are doing and give you their Precious Time .
Time to give some one money , Time to give emotional support , Time to offer their skills or service Time to offer kindness and caring words . Time to just Listen .

In regards to Scientific evidence . Science does not prove Historical events or evidence in away that it proves scientific facts .
There are Scientists who are Christians and believe in the historical Jesus Christ
Influential Scientists like Isaac Newton, Galileo Galilei, and Johannes Kepler.
Christ has preached that all humans are born of sin and must be born again and turn away from their selfish sinful ways and follow his lead of Kind , Caring and Compassionate nature .

The Moral of the story
We All Have a choice to be Kind

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

There are Scientists who are Christians and believe in the historical Jesus Christ
Influential Scientists like Isaac Newton, Galileo Galilei, and Johannes Kepler.
Christ has preached that all humans are born of sin and we must be born again and turn away from their selfish sinful ways and follow his lead of Kind , Caring and Compassionate nature .

At a guess most scientists believe in the historical Jesus but far fewer believe he's the son of God.

As for this idea of original sin, or that humans are bad unless we turn to God? Nup, this is the planet B scenario ... and the evidence suggests it is wrong.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Hunter-gatherers first launched violent raids at least 13,400 years ago

Skeletons from an ancient African cemetery bear the oldest known signs of small-scale warfare.

www.sciencenews.org

You think Jebel Sahaba demolishes the cooperative human theory? That is not how most current anthropologists see it. More as an example of exceptional circumstances. Clearly humans are capable of violence (!) the question is, what drives us to that?
For those who believe it's part of our human 'nature', this is exactly what is nowadays being strongly doubted.

 

[BOZO]

At a guess most scientists believe in the historical Jesus but far fewer believe he's the son of God.

As for this idea of original sin, or that humans are bad unless we turn to God? Nup, this is the planet B scenario ... and the evidence suggests it is wrong.

The fact is not all Scientists are convinced that Jesus did not exist and he is the not Son of God
The Scientific no God way is far from the conclusive way

All humans are born with human natures sin of jealousy , selfishness , inconsiderate ways and Christ way is the inspirational compassionate and kind way that changes us to be like him

 

[Brookie1973]

You think Jebel Sahaba demolishes the cooperative human theory? That is not how most current anthropologists see it. More as an example of exceptional circumstances. Clearly humans are capable of violence (!) the question is, what drives us to that?
For those who believe it's part of our human 'nature', this is exactly what is nowadays being strongly doubted.

I’m just “following the science”. The article is from ScienceNews in 2021, and shows evidence of human violence on 13,000 old human skeletons from the British Museum. That all sounds pretty sciencey and current to me.

But as you say, we are living in an age when history is being rewritten to suit modern socio-political ideals.

Didn’t the hippies try all that socialist commune stuff back in the 60s? Not sure that panned out too well as an ideal human organisational model. Would probably have even less chance today when the latest iPhone is considered an essential item.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Didn’t the hippies try all that socialist commune stuff back in the 60s? Not sure that panned out too well as an ideal human organisational model. Would probably have even less chance today when the latest iPhone is considered an essential item.

No. the hippies tried to 'opt out' of society, while living in the middle of a society. Clearly didn't work, no shock there.
The difference may be, pushing for harsher laws, more cops, more jails, more weapons and bigger military ... and less freedom - vs campaigning for fundamental change to make more egalitarian societies?

 

[Brookie1973]

No. the hippies tried to 'opt out' of society, while living in the middle of a society. Clearly didn't work, no shock there.
The difference may be, pushing for harsher laws, more cops, more jails, more weapons and bigger military ... and less freedom - vs campaigning for fundamental change to make more egalitarian societies?

If the hippies truly opted out of society, it was irrelevant what surrounded them. I think the truth is they couldn’t function without that society, and in reality they eventually realised that sitting around singing kumbaya and smoking pot all day got a little boring.

In moments of self reflection, do you ever ponder why your worldview is so fixated on black and white extremes? Planet A vs Planet B, militarism vs egalitarianism etc? The reality of human existence is played out a long way from those extremes, in a place where individuals hold a range of different values and beliefs, compromises are made, alternative views are welcomed and debated, and people make accomodations for those around them. At least that used to be the case.

If it is truly a choice between an egalitarian or militaristic society, why have communist nations always maintained some of the worlds largest militaries?

 

[Buck]

Held a door open for a young lady awhile ago and all I got was an eyeroll and sigh. Wasn't looking for thanks, just being nice but it's a "me" world these days unfortunately.


Edit - I've gone full lunatic comparing a door to an airplane crash but it's the little things that lead to bigger things eventually.

You are damned if you do & damned if you don't these days. I say maintain the good manners & consideration shown for others & consign the eye rollers to the 'who cares' pile.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

In moments of self reflection, do you ever ponder why your worldview is so fixated on black and white extremes? Planet A vs Planet B, militarism vs egalitarianism etc? The reality of human existence is played out a long way from those extremes

If so, why are you unequivocally pro-Planet B and militarism? Pot, kettle!

If it is truly a choice between an egalitarian or militaristic society, why have communist nations always maintained some of the worlds largest militaries?

Come on, you are not simple! Please don't say you don't know why. [clue: see emphasis added, 'some of']

 

[Brookie1973]

If so, why are you unequivocally pro-Planet B and militarism? Pot, kettle!



Come on, you are not simple! Please don't say you don't know why. [clue: see emphasis added, 'some of']

May I refer you to Post #4 in this thread where I opted for Planet C. So no pot, no kettle.

In relation to the other point you are trying to make, I assume you are suggesting that the peace loving egalitarian communists have massive militaries to combat the evil expansionary plans of the demon westerners? The attached timeline may be of interest.

Largest Army in the World 1816/2024 -

Largest Army in the World. An analysis of the largest military armies in history from 1816 to 2024. From the Ottoman Empire to the USA

statisticsanddata.org

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I assume you are suggesting that the peace loving egalitarian communists have massive militaries to combat the evil expansionary plans of the demon westerners?

Those few countries that have overthrown capitalism were instantly under pressure from the other capitalist powers, who funded and armed internal opposition, imposed economic sanctions and blockades, and generally remained hostile (to this day, even since those countries reverted to capitalism in significant ways)

You have heard of the Domino theory no doubt, it has been pushed as a cornerstone of our modern capitalist ideology that (of course!) the idea of sharing the wealth and power with everyone is a poisonous idea that represents an existential threat to us all! (so yes I expect countries that tried to overthrow capitalism remain a bit paranoid that we wish them harm)

as for Option C - there was no option C (!) but plenty of your comments show you to have a dim view of humans, hence I think you're planet B at heart

 

[Brookie1973]

Those few countries that have overthrown communism were instantly under pressure from the capitalist powers, who funded and armed internal opposition, imposed economic sanctions and blockades, and generally remained hostile (to this day, even since those countries reverted to capitalism in significant ways)

You have heard of the Domino theory no doubt, it has been pushed as a cornerstone of our modern capitalist ideology that (of course!) the idea of sharing the wealth and power with everyone is a poisonous idea that represents an existential threat to us all! (so yes I expect countries that tried to overthrow capitalism remain a bit paranoid that we wish them harm)

as for Option C - there was no option C (!) but plenty of your comments show you to have a dim view of humans, hence I think you're planet B at heart

I chose Option C to highlight your extreme black and white view of the world, which is common amongst those left of centre. Every conservative is a nazi right? Seems a rather dim view.

Not sure I followed the rest of your post but no matter. As we live in a free country, you are certainly entitled to express your opinion. I would say that you seem to have a very quaint view of communism where everyone shares in the wealth and power. I suspect the populations that lived under Stalin and Mao may not have shared your views.