The gap between NRL teams.

[Technical Coach]

I am not sold on the Bellamy super coach idea. He has had the best assets that money could buy, a huge nursery and is operating with 3 times the staff of the poorer clubs including us, had to cheat the salary cap to achieve any greatness and currently runs with the highest registered TPA's of any club or 2 rep stars more than the poorer clubs.

His Origin venture was an absolute failure as well.

Didn't always have the best assets, improved players that were rejected by other clubs, cheating the cap is nothing new in the NRL.

Bellamy builds a club, Origin requires a different skillset that can bring a team together in a short period, along with coaching against himself since Qld was full of Melb players.

His formula works no matter if it is the big 4,3,2, cheating the cap by huge amounts or not.(These are the facts)

All it takes is time and bringing together a team that believes in the formula, now i'm not saying Bellamy would always be as successful without such talent but still would be a great coach no matter what-----having the resources is one thing, using them to achieve results is another----look at Brisbane for the contrast.

 

[Technical Coach]

I agree that Slater was a better overall player; however, Stewart was better in more than just support play. Stewart was a much better passer, he was a natural, I have seen Slater pass out over the sideline on numerous occasions. Brett could pull off impossible passes and set up numerous tries. Brett was also better under the high ball.

The main area that Billy killed Brett in was kick returns - Billy is phenomenal at this and Brett pretty much succumbed to the first tackle every time. Billy is always on the ball operating at 100 miles per hour which makes him the best.

Both are not great passes of the ball, but yes Brett passing right to left had more quality about it, Brett passing left to right was average at best.

Stewart is not a better support player, not in the same class as Slater all over the park.

Slater has footy speed, Brett at his peak had outright speed.

I rate Stewart better under the high ball with much more courage, Slater with his kicking out shows he wasn't in the same class in this area or of the same courage and confidence levels.

Both defensively behind the line organise really well and read the play.

Slater is a danger all over the field, Stewart more an edge/ outwide second man player.

Both very smart players but Slater has the edge in this department.

 

[BOZO]

I wasn't abusing Barrett, just think he's not a very good coach, who is hiding behind excuses.

I agree with you there mate . Our team grossly underachieved and all we heard were excuses and we did not see any improvement in the way our team functioned as it slid down the ladder like the wooden spoon eels . All Trent was capable of focusing was on things he could not change like the clubs resources . Trent was accountable to change the way way our team was playing and he proved to be incapable .
In my time watching NRL I have not seen a more uninspiring Manly coach that nearly tarnished our Manly reputation by getting the spoon for the first time in our proud history
Trent was so painful to watch at a press conference . It was like sitting down and enduring severe hemorrhoid pain

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

Looking at the photo of the Handsome One, can someone mention to him that a hairy chest helps if you want to waltz around with the second button down undone.

Otherwise you just look like a flat-chested chick.

 

[HoldenV8]

I’m pretty sure Barrett’s management would have believed him to be a dead man walking as far as being our coach was concerned. The general consensus about his coaching abilities had started charting on a downward trajectory. Thats when he ramped up the poor me...I couldn’t possibly have done any better because of... I’m handing in my 12 month notice to try and save face...bullsh1t that we’ve got now.

I think you're 100% right @Kevinward777 , Barrett and his management knew he was a dead man walking as our coach and were trying their best to make it seem like he was in an environment where even the most experienced and successful coach would have struggled. Everything to deflect blame from him because they knew full well his own poor coaching record would make it hard for him to get another NRL head coaching job, especially in the short term.

 

[Woodsie]

Mate, you are well and truly part of said herd. When the dust settles on the 2018 performance review, it will certainly be borne out that there were shortcomings with support for Barrett. No argument there.
But I think he could have handled things better.
As most anti Barrett posters say, the issue is with his ability to coach a football team consistently well. By providing sound game plans to utilise our available squad to the best they can be.
Some of his selections and strategies were nonsense, and if he could not galvanise the team on the field to defend as a unit, then surely he is open to criticism.
Anyway, we all have our views and yearn the same results...being consistently competitive would be a magnificent starting point!

Generally in life, most situations and people are complex ..... I can simply judge his desire and insistance for OUR club being properly resourced as a seperate issue to his coaching record ....

Are you saying that if he won more games then his stance was noble and justified ... but because he lost more games then somehow he is an arsehole and a cry baby and the place doesn't need to be resourced .. ? It is a common theme when people argue an alternate case against me they wish to list a litany of coaching errors ...... I don't know why ..... they have no bearing on my statement ... which is ...... Barrett is the only bloke in 10 years that has stood up to the ruling Junta and said resource this place like you promised.

How a poor coaching record changes that will just have to remain a mystery to me ..... why people would abuse him for it a travesty ..

 

[Sue]

It's a no brainer. The richest clubs tend to have the most success. The exceptions (Eels, lol) merely prove the rule.

Hardly

Penrith Brisbane Canterbury Parramatta haven’t won in a decade, the same decade that Centre of Excellences and state of the art gyms have become the catchcry for success.

Cowboys, Cronulla , St Merge and Manly( twice) have won in that period as well.We have won twice in the last 10 years and lost a GF with the same facilities so I would suggest Manly disprove the so called “rich clubs” rule.

Good coaches , good attitude and good committed players win comps and always have.The man we seem to want as a coach repeated the same thing a month ago and that’s why we need him.

Have no issue with Barrett wanting better support. It will help at the margin possibly and he should not be berated for it , but it is not an excuse for the horrible stuff this year produced and should not hide his obvious deficiencies as a coach.He is out of his depth.His ridiculous selections and game plans at the back end of the season in particular is ample evidence. Doesn’t reflect on him as a person, he’s just not up to it.

I think what got most people offside was not his asking for better support / facilties etc but the fact he BLAMED the entire pathetic season on it to the point of legal action. People are simply not going to buy the fact that a better gym and a recruitment manager would fix 600 points conceded and a near spoon.

 

[Ryan]

All the above has been argued in 20 threads and some 1000's of posts ......I just believe abusing Barrett for wanting the club to have the same resources as other NRL teams to be totally senseless .... the Daly Messenger made do with a drink of water from the tap response I find counter productive to Manly's best interests for the future ... .....

Totally agree mate.

And that's the thing. As a fanbase, we can't just say it's Manly's turn to be poor, because League goes in cycles and it's out turn, because "that's just what's happened with other teams in the past".

What I mean by that, people claiming that Toovey and Hasler were successful under the same conditions, aren't looking at the facts "as they stand today"

X Toovey and Hasler had a head recruitment / list officer for starters
X The game is 3-5 years past Toovey and Hasler's tenure, and the game has actually completely changed in that time
X Hasler / Toovey had the services of guys like Arthur, Cleal, Siebold, W. Peters, Fulton, (Toovey in Hasler's case) and a vast array of CEO's (Barrett had some too)
X Hasler didn't have to deal with Penn's restrictive budgeting

It's complete apples and oranges. In the past 2-3 years, Trent Barrett didn't get a fair go, straight as. Penn should be ashamed. I feel it borders unethical / unprofessional of the family. How people are ripping Trent for wanting a better environment for the players and staff actually shocks and amazes me.

 

[manly al]

Generally in life, most situations and people are complex ..... I can simply judge his desire and insistance for OUR club being probably resourced as a seperate issue to his coaching record ....

Are you saying that if he won more games then his stance was noble and justified ... but because he lost more games then somehow he is an arsehole and a cry baby and the place doesn't need to be resourced .. ? It is a common theme when people argue an alternate case against me they wish to list a litany of coaching errors ...... I don't know why ..... they have no bearing on my statement ... which is ...... Barrett is the only bloke in 10 years that has stood up to the ruling Junta and said resource this place like you promised.

How a poor coaching record changes that will just have to remain a mystery to me ..... why people would abuse him for it a travesty ..

I guess in many ways , that is the point , the same facilities and resource level were in place and present last season when the team was getting better results and Trent did not make a big deal and express righteous indignation against the supposed lack of support or resources then . Standing up to a footy club"s ownership grouping and embarking on a primarily convenient whinging exercise and excuse motivated campaign are essentially two different situations and on balance , it really seems that the first contention certainly does not apply in Trent "s case and his stand in general this season .

 

[Sue]

Generally in life, most situations and people are complex ..... I can simply judge his desire and insistance for OUR club being probably resourced as a seperate issue to his coaching record ....

Are you saying that if he won more games then his stance was noble and justified ... but because he lost more games then somehow he is an arsehole and a cry baby and the place doesn't need to be resourced .. ? It is a common theme when people argue an alternate case against me they wish to list a litany of coaching errors ...... I don't know why ..... they have no bearing on my statement ... which is ...... Barrett is the only bloke in 10 years that has stood up to the ruling Junta and said resource this place like you promised.

How a poor coaching record changes that will just have to remain a mystery to me ..... why people would abuse him for it a travesty ..

We won two titles and made a GF in those 10 years. That’s why no one other than him complained about it .Other than Melbourne no one did better.

But if his complaints mean better resources then that will not hurt for sure. It is not the key to success but is definitely a part of the recipe and will probably be a bigger part going forward.

 

[Woodsie]

I guess in many ways , that is the point , the same facilities and resource level were in place and present last season when the team was getting better results and Trent did not make a big deal and express righteous indignation against the supposed lack of support or resources then . Standing up to a footy club"s ownership grouping and embarking on a primarily convenient whinging exercise and excuse motivated campaign are essentially two different situations and on balance , it really seems that the first contention certainly does not apply in Trent "s case and his stand in general this season .

Al .... we have had this arguement ......It was not the same las year, last year Bobby Fulton was there as football Manager and recruitment Officer ... he was NOT replaced and still hasn't been ...... and Baz DID make a big deal of it .... he delayed signing a contract extension until he was promised action ...... which still hasn't happened ....

 

[manly al]

Hardly

Penrith Brisbane Canterbury Parramatta haven’t won in a decade, the same decade that Centre of Excellences and state of the art gyms have become the catchcry for success.

Cowboys, Cronulla , St Merge and Manly( twice) have won in that period as well.We have won twice in the last 10 years and lost a GF with the same facilities so I would suggest Manly disprove the so called “rich clubs” rule.

Good coaches , good attitude and good committed players win comps and always have.The man we seem to want as a coach repeated the same thing a month ago and that’s why we need him.

Have no issue with Barrett wanting better support. It will help at the margin possibly and he should not be berated for it , but it is not an excuse for the horrible stuff this year produced and should not hide his obvious deficiencies as a coach.He is out of his depth.His ridiculous selections and game plans at the back end of the season in particular is ample evidence. Doesn’t reflect on him as a person, he’s just not up to it.

I think what got most people offside was not his asking for better support / facilties etc but the fact he BLAMED the entire pathetic season on it to the point of legal action. People are simply not going to buy the fact that a better gym and a recruitment manager would fix 600 points conceded and a near spoon.

Apart from having the cattle and astute coaching , also need the right hunger and professional level from the playing group . No doubt need a couple of more quality cattle for better results but the hunger and professional level can only be instilled and embodied in the playing group with the full commitment of the playing group . Quite a few Manly players set the standard last season but need the rest to also provide it in approaching seasons .

 

[Woodsie]

We won two titles and made a GF in those 10 years. Other than Melbourne no one did better.

But if his complaints mean better resources then that will not hurt for sure. It is not the key to success but is definitely a small part of the recipe and will probably be a bigger part going forward.

I think it was @mickqld that said top line resources may not win you a comp but having them certainly won't hurt .... Sue, alot has changed since 2008/11 ... not the least being our ability to attract top line talent .... players ever want more and this generation expect more .....

I watched Souths (the pride of the League) go backwards into oblivion for 43 years when run on nothing but passion, tradition .and a shoestring .... it wasn't until new owners brought the club screaming and kicking into the 21st Century did their fortunes turn around ...

Owners and CEO's not providing chairs, desks or cleaning the gym are neither here nor there ..... but as indicative of an attitude they speak volumes ..... as an experienced businessman you know a place can often be judged by attention to the small things .......

 

[manly al]

Al .... we have had this arguement ......It was not the same las year, last year Bobby Fulton was there as football Manager and recruitment Officer ... he was NOT replaced and still hasn't been ...... and Baz DID make a big deal of it .... he delayed signing a contract extension until he was promised action ...... which still hasn't happened ....

Wasn "t Hoss Cartwright given this role at some stage this season along with Scott Fulton and possibly a couple of others . How were quite a few players re signed during this season or others recruited or released if there was not some semblance of a retention and resigning group at the club this season . It was not as if there was no one there in some capacity to carry out and execute these duties during Trent"s tenure this season . I am also fairly adamant that the delay in Trent re signing last season was mainly money related .

 

[Woodsie]

Wasn "t Hoss Cartwright given this role at some stage this season along with Scott Fulton and possibly a couple of others . How were quite a few players re signed during this season or others recruited or released if there was not some semblance of a retention and resigning group at the club this season . It was not as if there was no one there in some capacity to carry out and execute these duties during Trent"s tenure this season . I am also fairly adamant that the delay in Trent re signing last season was mainly money related .

mate, when you are happy that your assistant coach is moonlighting as the recruitent Officer and salary cap manager ( 2 full time jobs at every other club) .... then we are truly and absolutly fukkened ....

 

[Sue]

We disagree on many things Woodsie but I’m with you on the separation of the issues regarding coaching skills and Trent’s complaints. I don’t think our facilities / support is as big an issue as he makes out but it must be addressed.And yes little things are often reflective of a more deep seated attitude.

The biggest problem is Manly lacks leadership in spades both at a coaching level and management. Without being specific my best mate is the person who I think drove most of Manlys success in terms of off field matters in that period post Northern Eagles to 40 nil.

His comment last night and many times over the last few years.. No leadership.

Des ran everything football in those years and this disguised the inefficiencies at the top post 08. Between incompatible owners and bozo involving himself there was a lot of **** going down.

Trent was never going to do a Des in this regard. He does not have that persona.I think Trent was brought here too early , was way out of his depth and was a choice by people with no football nouse. I also think he’s be a good guy but needs a far greater grounding before he returns as a head coach.

Unfortunately the owner has private issues to deal with now as well. Unless we get a coach that addresses our obvious weaknesses at a football level I think only an ownership change can stop our death spiral.

 

[Woodsie]

How does a full time salary cap manager fill in his hours every day? Surely it's an hour a week on a spreadsheet at most. What's to manage? We have these players who we are paying this amount. Is this amount above or below the salary cap? Next year we have these players signed for this amount. Is this above or below the cap? Am I missing something? I can see how this task may tax Hoss Cartwright though.

I don't know ..... but it appears all clubs have one .... but hey, can't be too difficult ..... it only took Manly, the NRL and teams of lawyers 12 months to debate the technicalities of one line in a TPA contract ... and then still disagreed ... and getting it wrong didn't cost us much (losing Pearce) ... or affect our season much ...

The fact is whatever specific roles are assigned .... the fact that we have 9 fooball staff as opposed to 23 at the more professional outfits is well and truly putting us in the also-ran class of football clubs ....

Manly however are talented ..... lets say we can be as good with only half the staff say 12 ......

 

[Scorpio]

How does a full time salary cap manager fill in his hours every day? Surely it's an hour a week on a spreadsheet at most. What's to manage? We have these players who we are paying this amount. Is this amount above or below the salary cap? Next year we have these players signed for this amount. Is this above or below the cap? Am I missing something? I can see how this task may tax Hoss Cartwright though.

If all players were purely paid through the allotted salary cap amount, then yes, all you would need is a spreadsheet and a few hours.

However, (and unfortunately) Third Party Agreements are an entirely different can of worms - and for some clubs these are worth millions per year on top of their $9.4 million. Remember we are wearing a salary cap penalty because of a lack of oversight or lack of due diligence in organising TPAs "at arms length" - whatever that was clarified to mean.

I have absolutely no doubt (from the Maloney/KENO incident for example) we are far from the only club who has/is organising TPAs for their players. But they don't get picked off by the NRL because:
1. They are too politically/geographically important, or
2. Those clubs are just smarter at doing it.

We can't do much about reason 1, but we sure as hell fall behind other clubs at reason #2... and this won't improve if we just assign an assistant coach to manage it.

 

[mickqld]

There are no black and white rules in the nrl for salary cap/tpas. It's made up as you go sh*t the same as everything else. It's like the cops parading a drug bust on some small timers while the syndicates continue to ply their trade. Nothing will change. The nrl is as corrupt as our govts and big business. It's the way capitalism works. Make it look like you're championing the little guy while you're actually reaming them without lube.

 

[Technical Coach]

Lets see how his formula works without the big 1, scam smith. How many premierships has bellamy won without Smith? Zero. Without Smith, his team suffered the worst GF loss in league history. Do you think bellamy would be as successful if every club in the league had the resources of the Storm, including the backing of the games owners?

You are looking at this the wrong way.

Basically if we start all over again, Bellamy/The Storm will spot under valued talent they think can be developed, a few years later become minor premiers by a big Margin in 2006 and lose the GF. Player values start to rocket up, Minor premiers again by a big Margin in 2007--- player values rocket up again, minor premiers again 2008 player values rock up again.(remember Manly benefited with Orford and Bell to help take Manly to another level)

Most players Melb developed in that time, not a case of purchased talent that was trying to be retained, lost out to Manly in trying to retain Orford in a massive bidding war behind the scenes.

Manly at the time was developing many stars also, but also purchasing big names to compliment the youth, much harder for Melb to retain all their developed stars due to location---all young players would prefer to move closer to home so massive overs were paid to keep the team together.

So if a young Bellamy had to start now i could see the same scenario playing out, team building up over 3-4yrs with unheralded young talent, a whole bunch become rep players and massive cap pressure again.

Will Bellamy want to invest so much time and effort at his present age again to replicate that spectacular rise---probably not, unless he has a chip on his shoulder and wants to prove the doubters wrong.

First the knockers said "because of the big 4", then the "big 3", now the "big 2" and they still make a GF, yeah there will be a drop off when Smith retires but if Bellamy still has the work ethic of his past i would say in 3-4yrs Melb will be back in the top 4 again.

Obviously much harder now because every other team in some form has replicated either Melb's playing formula or game analysis or recruiting methods.

Take it this way i rate and respect Melb's rise from 03-07 more than Manly's 04-08 even though i rate both highly----- on the back of developing more talent with less star purchases than Manly.