Considering Tooves achievements 2012

[Chip and Chase]

Hey guys, don't under estimate the quality and strength of our roster. On paper, best in League in my opinion, by some.

My rating is almost out of respect for them if anything.

Given better defensive structures. Given some "new and innovate" plays. Even WITH the injuries etc, I say we should have won it all this year.

I think we grossly under achieved.

Our players were fantastic - one through twenty five. I couldn't find fault in any of them.

I personally believe it was the "system" on and off the field that let them down.

Therefore, given our quality on the park, I think 4th, and losing most of our crucial games means Toovey deserves a 4.

Ryan I think you are underestimating the strength of our opposition and the closeness of the comp. There is no way our roster is the best in the league "by some", our forward pack is no way the best in the NRL for a start. Our front row rotation lets us down and we don't lay the solid platform some other sides do.

We all get you don't like Toovey, but to give him 4/10 is a joke. These systems on and off the field you speak of, are the same ones that got us a premiership last year and the game hasn't changed that much since that time.

Toovey is no Hasler yet, but it is his first year in the job so how about giving him a bit of credit. We were one win off a GF. How did last years other grand finalists go ? the year before that's grand finalists ??. We played an absolute shocker of a finals game against Melbourne which has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but Toovey was better than 4/10.

Personally I'd give him 7.5/10. Our season was inconsistent and we won some games on the back of brilliant individual play rather than good team play. We developed that second half drop off syndrome which was a worry, and we never really clicked in a game all year. There is definite room for improvement, which is a good thing.

 

[Ryan]

Hey guys, don't under estimate the quality and strength of our roster. On paper, best in League in my opinion, by some.

My rating is almost out of respect for them if anything.

Given better defensive structures. Given some "new and innovate" plays. Even WITH the injuries etc, I say we should have won it all this year.

I think we grossly under achieved.

Our players were fantastic - one through twenty five. I couldn't find fault in any of them.

I personally believe it was the "system" on and off the field that let them down.

Therefore, given our quality on the park, I think 4th, and losing most of our crucial games means Toovey deserves a 4.

Ryan,

The team got to a grand final qualifier. My view has always been that to get that far and to then be able to take the next step and win a comp, it more comes down to players attitudes than anything else (fitness, skill-sets, coaching etc have all just about evened themselves out when you reach that stage). Despite all the talk about B2B, I really believe we were simply out-hungered by Melbourne - they had more to play for than we did. Motivation is key at this stage. We won the year before and were less hungry than Melbourne who had a huge point to prove. Coupled with a long disrupted season, I really dont think Tooves could have done anything about this from a coaching perspective. Really can't see how you then therefore rate him a 4 tbh. I also dont think our roster is as superior as you make out, particularly on recent form (again, not so much a coaching issue).

Mate, to be fair, "hunger" has a whole lot to do with Tooves. Also disagree on the roster. We'd be the envy of every club's coach and ownership in the league - by miles.

To come from where we were roster wise to here, is outstanding, and the club should be credited for that.

Nope, I found this season a disappointment, and hope next season, we kick some ass. My expectation is both minor premiership, and the premiership overall. That's my expectation in a team that houses The Stewart's Lyon, Matai, Foran, DCE, Ballin, Kite, King, Watmough, Buhrer, Galuvao and a sprinkle of quality juniors being injected.

Anything less, I'll be disappointed mate.

 

[Sheikheagle]

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

that's a surprise!

 

[Ryan]

Hey guys, don't under estimate the quality and strength of our roster. On paper, best in League in my opinion, by some.

My rating is almost out of respect for them if anything.

Given better defensive structures. Given some "new and innovate" plays. Even WITH the injuries etc, I say we should have won it all this year.

I think we grossly under achieved.

Our players were fantastic - one through twenty five. I couldn't find fault in any of them.

I personally believe it was the "system" on and off the field that let them down.

Therefore, given our quality on the park, I think 4th, and losing most of our crucial games means Toovey deserves a 4.

Ryan I think you are underestimating the strength of our opposition and the closeness of the comp. There is no way our roster is the best in the league "by some", our forward pack is no way the best in the NRL for a start. Our front row rotation lets us down and we don't lay the solid platform some other sides do.

We all get you don't like Toovey, but to give him 4/10 is a joke. These systems on and off the field you speak of, are the same ones that got us a premiership last year and the game hasn't changed that much since that time.

Toovey is no Hasler yet, but it is his first year in the job so how about giving him a bit of credit. We were one win off a GF. How did last years other grand finalists go ? the year before that's grand finalists ??. We played an absolute shocker of a finals game against Melbourne which has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but Toovey was better than 4/10.

Personally I'd give him 7.5/10. Our season was inconsistent and we won some games on the back of brilliant individual play rather than good team play. We developed that second half drop off syndrome which was a worry, and we never really clicked in a game all year. There is definite room for improvement, which is a good thing.

Mate, I'm a firm believer that a coach needs to be innovative and new in his tactics. Our players are quality - NO-ONE can deny that. Therefore, I think they are good enough to play, with perfection, any coaches game plan.

What I saw, was much of the same as last season. Didn't Toovey say at the start of the season, that he wasn't going to change much?

Well he needed to.

I also agree that our team maybe put in one full 80 minute performance. Really, that's not good enough in my way of thinking.

There is certainly improvement left in us.

I don't know guys. I WANT my mind changed. I do. But I just can't get past visualising our team one through 17, and not thinking of them lining up Grand Final day.

My expectation is high, I know, but we have the team that warrants this.

---

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

that's a surprise!

What, that I rate our roster higher than you and others? Stop being so negative towards our players. Show them more respect. Support your team.

 

[Chip and Chase]

Have you ever thought that some of the players in our team look brilliant because the team structure and game plan suits their style and they are comfortable with the fit. Change that style of play and we suddenly don't look so good.

 

[Ryan]

Hey guys, don't under estimate the quality and strength of our roster. On paper, best in League in my opinion, by some.

My rating is almost out of respect for them if anything.

Given better defensive structures. Given some "new and innovate" plays. Even WITH the injuries etc, I say we should have won it all this year.

I think we grossly under achieved.

Our players were fantastic - one through twenty five. I couldn't find fault in any of them.

I personally believe it was the "system" on and off the field that let them down.

Therefore, given our quality on the park, I think 4th, and losing most of our crucial games means Toovey deserves a 4.

Ryan,

The team got to a grand final qualifier. My view has always been that to get that far and to then be able to take the next step and win a comp, it more comes down to players attitudes than anything else (fitness, skill-sets, coaching etc have all just about evened themselves out when you reach that stage). Despite all the talk about B2B, I really believe we were simply out-hungered by Melbourne - they had more to play for than we did. Motivation is key at this stage. We won the year before and were less hungry than Melbourne who had a huge point to prove. Coupled with a long disrupted season, I really dont think Tooves could have done anything about this from a coaching perspective. Really can't see how you then therefore rate him a 4 tbh. I also dont think our roster is as superior as you make out, particularly on recent form (again, not so much a coaching issue).

Mate, to be fair, "hunger" has a whole lot to do with Tooves. Also disagree on the roster. We'd be the envy of every club's coach and ownership in the league - by miles.

To come from where we were roster wise to here, is outstanding, and the club should be credited for that.

Nope, I found this season a disappointment, and hope next season, we kick some ass. My expectation is both minor premiership, and the premiership overall. That's my expectation in a team that houses The Stewart's Lyon, Matai, Foran, DCE, Ballin, Kite, King, Watmough, Buhrer, Galuvao and a sprinkle of quality juniors being injected.

Anything less, I'll be disappointed mate.

I think we are all disappointed with how the season ended, but still struggle with a 4 rating for Tooves. He was only 2 games short of a 10 rating after all. As for the roster, agree on paper it is close to the best, but form, suspension and injuries all impacted this year. I think its too early to determine how much of the form issues are coaching related - lets see how things go next year. As for our prospects, if we had another good quality prop in the line-up, I would just about have us as favourites.

Yup, I'm definitely good with that.

---

Have you ever thought that some of the players in our team look brilliant because the team structure and game plan suits their style and they are comfortable with the fit. Change that style of play and we suddenly don't look so good.

That's my point mate. A lot of those players (G Stewart for example) did NOT look that way this year. His style and game play (in my opinion of coarse), was thoroughly worked out, and countered.

It's up to Toovey to change the game plan enough to have quality players like this stay ahead of the pack, and in my view, Toovey didn't do that, which let a number of the players down, especially quality ones.

I also thought Tony Williams was mis-used.

And Shiekheagle - I was kidding in my response. Sarcasm mate.

 

[swoop]

Ryan, I think your judgement is clouded by your dislike of Tooves.

Go back a few to 2009 or 2010 I think it was, when under the dog we were bundled out of the finals on week one. That that year was a similar year when we had a gun team but injuries didn't allow us to progress.

As stated above Tooves was thrown into the job. He had to recruit new coaching staff, we had many injured at different times of the year and was trying to put his stamp on the game. Even though he was assistant coach it takes time to settle into the top job.

Add all the dramma with re-signings.

Considering all this I give him 9 out of 10.

BTW I've also seen a few of your posts saying that we shouldn't of been beaten by some lowly placed teams. But go back through the years and you'll see even under the dogs' watch we dropped a few games in the same manner.

 

[the mauler]

Tooves was thrust into the job with basically no coaching staff left, threats of mass exodus of star players and club in turmoil. All he could really do was try and stabilize the joint both on and off the field.

Didnt have the time to change gameplans and put his spin on things. He should be given this year before we start judging his coaching ability.

 

[Ryan]

Tooves was thrust into the job with basically no coaching staff left, threats of mass exodus of star players and club in turmoil. All he could really do was try and stabilize to joint both on and off the field.

Didnt have the time to change gameplans and put his spin on things. He should be given this year before we start judging his coaching ability.

What? Toovey inherited a team that had 14 players from last years GF in it. His job is to coach these players. Toovey joined the coaching staff in 2004, so has been coaching in, and around this team for EIGHT years. Toovey retained the head trainer from years past.

I find it hard to accept he inherited an unknown machine. Really, his foot-print is well established in the winning culture we have (that's a compliment by the way).

 

[Mals]

8 out of 10.

On field performance mostly good, a few disappointing losses to Penrith, Parra & Titans. Depth of the squad was not as good as 2011 so when injuries came the quality dipped. Toovey also had to contend with more players involved in SOO & T-Dog's idiotic long suspension.

 

[Hamster Huey]

Mate, I'm a firm believer that a coach needs to be innovative and new in his tactics. Our players are quality - NO-ONE can deny that. Therefore, I think they are good enough to play, with perfection, any coaches game plan.

What I saw, was much of the same as last season. Didn't Toovey say at the start of the season, that he wasn't going to change much?

Well he needed to.

I also agree that our team maybe put in one full 80 minute performance. Really, that's not good enough in my way of thinking.

There is certainly improvement left in us.

I don't know guys. I WANT my mind changed. I do. But I just can't get past visualising our team one through 17, and not thinking of them lining up Grand Final day.

My expectation is high, I know, but we have the team that warrants this.

Please.

Toovey went from assistant to head with no preparation for the role or control over the path Des had in place for 2012.

The best thing was to stay solid to what he knew, then work out for himself what worked and what needed tweeking.

That was the inconsistancy you saw during the course of the season as teams familiar with Manly Mk 2011 were able to exploit some of our structures, but Tooves had enough initiatives to keep them at bay with his own 2012 ideas.

Look at the Warriors for a glimpse on what a new 'innovative' coach with 'fresh ideas' does when making wholesale changes without regard for the past.

And I find your assertion that the Manly squad is the envy of the League to be way off the mark. Sure, some clubs would kill for the same 1-17, but I can rest assured that the coach/staff/fans of the likes of the Cowboys, Souths, Dogs and Storm were largely 100% happy with their lot. I know that I'd happily swap 3-4 players out of each of their squads to improve ours...but there's that damn Salary Cap in place.

 

[Garts]

I agree with Ryan that our roster is probably the best on paper. But to say we "grossly" underachieved is a exaggeration. Remember, we did make the GF qualifier. A gross underachievement would be limping into 8th with the that squad or missing the 8.

Ryan, you have previously stated that you dislike Toovey. The way I see it is that you cannot be impartial on this matter and as a result it's hard to take you seriously on this issue. There is no doubt we could have performed better. Especially in our defensive structures. You definitely have some valid points. But to score him a 4 out of 10 when we made the GF qualifier shows you are clearly conflicted when it comes to Toovey. It would be like getting a reference on Dave Perry from Zorba, haha.

 

[Hamster Huey]

Tooves was thrust into the job with basically no coaching staff left, threats of mass exodus of star players and club in turmoil. All he could really do was try and stabilize to joint both on and off the field.

Didnt have the time to change gameplans and put his spin on things. He should be given this year before we start judging his coaching ability.

What? Toovey inherited a team that had 14 players from last years GF in it. His job is to coach these players. Toovey joined the coaching staff in 2004, so has been coaching in, and around this team for EIGHT years. Toovey retained the head trainer from years past.

I find it hard to accept he inherited an unknown machine. Really, his foot-print is well established in the winning culture we have (that's a compliment by the way).

Unsure if Tooves has been quoted, but Donny Singe made it clear in the wash-up that they had a huge learning curve in getting across all the areas that Des managed, prior to his walk out.

Just because you're on staff for a while, doesn't mean you're over every aspect of the top job. And without the support of those previously involved to help take up the slack (meaning you're not only planning a season, but trying to entice/recruit new staff), it becomes a real handful.

For somebody that appears to have a healthy understanding of business, you appear to have completely forgotten all the factors involved in running a successful entity, and the ripple effects when there is a huge changeover at the top levels, no matter how good your remaining staff are.

 

[jbb/james]

im not going to convince myself i can judge tooves by what we saw on the field.There are countless other immeasurables that we just have no idea about

For promoting the club and being a bit more media savvy, a massive improvement. I also thought our attack improved a lot, and we look like we may be breaking away from the tried and true stat based footy. I really liked that

I thought our defence was at times better and worse. It seemed more like an attitude

Our ball control and respect for the footy was not as good

I think he overcame many obstacles very well, like finding the best support staff he could in a short time frame. He rarely seemed flustered or concerned about things out of his control or job description. I expect he will be a bit tougher with the boys in the off season as he has had a year to learn, something to make adjustments too. I think the club will start very well in 2013

Its hard to see how he could achieve any more that what he did

---

I just think tooves was much more professional about his role in a club. He had an attitude that showed the whole of the club was important and he was part or a bigger picture and not the main attraction

 

[southsideeagle]

Forgetting about 2011, 2012 was a success and was easy to be proud of our team. It takes time to move a team in the way you want it to play or capable of managing in that direction. I think Tooves should look back and see areas he would do differently. That comes by being at the "helm".
8 out of 10.

 

[anthonyb1965]

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

All Star team?? Absolutely, that was coached by a "control freak", and a very successfull one!!

There is no way we would have done as well is DH was still here this year in fact we probably would have lost a couple more players through his direct influence!

I think Toovs has performed admirably and deserves an 8/10 for keeping our stars (Snake, Foz, DCE) when they most likely wanted to follow Des, getting our team to the GF qualifyer through injuries and suspensions and a definite relaxing of disapline from the players.

I look forward to seeing him become his "own coach" next year now that he has some confidance and has seen what he needs to do without Mr Control around!

 

[weev]

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

Ha ha . For you it's not a case of glass half empty but a case of there's no damn pub!

 

[Ryan]

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

Ha ha . For you it's not a case of glass half empty but a case of there's no damn pub!

You don't rate the playing roster?

 

[Volley]

Haha, love your work Ryan. One of the best trolls I've seen in years.

 

[Frank]

No way. Inherited an All Star team. Has been "in the system" with the top grade for ages. Retained "most" players from the Grand Final win the season before. Lost to bottom ranking, and performing teams. Lost the WCC. Lost two finals out of three. HUGE underwhelming performance in my opinion. I also don't like that the club used injury / suspension as an excuse (that's not us), and I'm not happy with our defense in certain stretches of the season.

4/10.

I reckon Technical Coach could have done a better job.

1 win off another GF appearance = 4/10. Hardly surprising.

Considering what he had to deal with when taking over that is a ridiculous assessment. I think you're still confusing the coaching performances of North's coaches with ours.