Happy commercial non-denominational autumn holiday

[Dan]

I didn't say that, what I said is to use that as your argument invalidates your own argument.

 

[Rex]

You can't use language to point out the limitations of language?

You can't use intellect to describe flaws in intellect?

Is that what you're saying? Really?

 

[Dan]

No it is what you are saying

 

[Rex]

Nope. Again, didn't say that at all.

So we can use language to point out the limitations of language. And we can use intellect to describe the flaws in intellect. Yes?

 

[Dan]

no because to say Language is flawed in communicating concepts, means that what you are saying is inherently flawed.

Personally I think that is complete poppycock. Language itself isn't flawed it is the user and listener that is the problem

 

[Rex]

A hammer is helpful to fix nails. It's not an infallible or one-tool-fits-all device. Try over-reaching and start using the hammer to clean your windows ...

Language is a hammer, a fallible tool. Nothing special.

Language is just language. When we believe language can perfectly communicate experience, or feelings, or anything else apart from a limited language concept (a theory), then we're as deluded as when we use a hammer believing it's a window cleaner.

An old saying is that 95% of communication happens non-verbally. That wouldn't be true if language weren't quite limited and fallible.

 

[Dan]

no matter what words you use, your argument is simply a paradox. If language is a flawed way of communicating, then the mere fact of communicating that via language is flawed and your statement is therefore false, in which case. However the statement can also be true at the same time.

I will call that The Rex Paradox, hopefully we can have a mathematician provide a formula to solve the paradox.

In actuality I don't believe language is a flawed communication tool. Fallible and corruptible it may be, but the words used to describe them are no less real than your ability to feel the warmth of the sun.

However just to clarify, I don't really give a toss either way and am really just over the entire topic. Someone else can have fishing trip

 

[lsz]

I'd also like to take this opportunity to express my approval of the modern day fashion for brazilians. The good lord knows I am no there to floss.


Oh yeah and I am a Jewish atheist. Work that one out.

No need to work it out as I am one of them as well

As Seinfeld said i am in for the jokes (and the holidays / traditions) rather than the religion

All that said i am surprised we, the chosen people, do not get more thanks for the 4 day weekend....

 

[codewana]

Quite a few 'chosen ones' on these boards!

 

[Rex]

In actuality I don't believe language is a flawed communication tool. Fallible and corruptible it may be, but the words used to describe them are no less real than your ability to feel the warmth of the sun.

The word is the word. The warmth is the warmth.

The word "warmth" is not the warmth.

This = This ... is real
This = That ... is imaginary

Words can be considered real until we conceive that words are what they represent. Then they've jumped over into the imaginary. When we blindly believe the imaginary is the real, the tool becomes the master.

The word tree, even the memory of a tree, is not the living, breathing tree. To forget that difference is to objectify. When we objectify we blindly harm others and self. Being blindly caught in concepts is the source of outer harm - like environmental destruction, terrorism and wars. Being blindly caught in concepts is also the source of inner harm - our suffering.

 

[Dan]

And how do you know your experience of warmth is the same as mine.

As i have always told you, you may put a pretty bow around what you say, but it doesn't make it any more true.

 

[lsz]

Quite a few 'chosen ones' on these boards!

Well the chosen ones tend to choose the right team...

 

[Dan]

I am half "chosen" it mainly manifests in my wallet. Deep pockets, short arms

 

[Fluffy]

So tight.

 

[lsz]

Funnily enough that is the least part of the stereotype that i live up too

 

[Rex]

And how do you know your experience of warmth is the same as mine.

As i have always told you, you may put a pretty bow around what you say, but it doesn't make it any more true.

Seems we're on common ground Dan.

We don't really know whether our experiences of warmth are the same, and we have a single word "warmth" to describe it and then communicate thinking the other understands what we are saying. Not as bad with a relatively unabstracted word like warmth, as with something really ambiguous, intangible and multi-meaning like "love" or "God". We may not even be on the same planet, let alone in the same ballpark.

And we assume we have "the truth", whatever that is, and every time we argue with someone else, that's us putting our pretty bows around it . That's us saying our concept of "what is" (our "truth") is more accurate than the other's concept, and we normally do that before even understanding the other's concept. Who really listens first before asserting their "truth"? If we saw we may not even be talking about the same thing, where's the heat to argue, where's the need for pretty bows? And when does it really matter if another person is attached to a different concept (a different "truth) anyway?

 

[Dan]

You miss the point entirely, spoken Language is only fallible because of us humans, and paradoxically only exists because of us humans.

It is the human side that is corruptible and fallible, language itself is actually extremely well suit to relaying just about everything

 

[Rex]

Quite a few 'chosen ones' on these boards!

We're all chosen, we're all special, we all like to think we're not diseducated.

---

You miss the point entirely, spoken Language is only fallible because of us humans, and paradoxically only exists because of us humans.

It is the human side that is corruptible and fallible, language itself is actually extremely well suit to relaying just about everything

Build your house with your hammer then. Put the other tools away.

 

[Matabele]

So there are some really smart guys who are convinced there is a God and can prove it, and there are some really smart guys who are convinced there is no God and can prove it.

And really a long time ago it stopped being a discussion about whether there is a God or not, and it's now really about which of these guys is the smartest, wittiest, knows the most, can string together the best prose, and probably who has the largest dick (because clearly a God would want us to be well endowed).

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

The word tree, even the memory of a tree, is not the living, breathing tree. To forget that difference is to objectify. When we objectify we blindly harm others and self. Being blindly caught in concepts is the source of outer harm - like environmental destruction, terrorism and wars. Being blindly caught in concepts is also the source of inner harm - our suffering.

I think this is where T Rex is going wrong.