Happy commercial non-denominational autumn holiday

[lsz]

I would be interested if either of you could explain your arguments in a paragraph....

 

[The Gronk]

I think the more convoluted language someone uses to explain themselves the less sure they are of their opinion and their intellect.

 

[lsz]

**** yeah

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I say God doesn't exist. Nor does the Devil. That's about it.
When I say God I mean the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority. I think there's a logical problem with spirit, soul, and miracles to the extent that by definition they defy the normal laws of nature, physics, science (as I know it). Furthermore I think it is possible to explain religious ideology in terms of its historical role, the 'opiate of the masses' argument.
Hope that helps . . . :huh:

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PS I have no wish to offend anyone with different views, these are just my opinions, and I think it's worth discussing because I reckon a lot of terrible actions get justified in the name of religion of one sort or another...

 

[Rex]

I think the more convoluted language someone uses to explain themselves the less sure they are of their opinion and their intellect.

And the more sure people appear to be of their opinion and intellect, what do you observe about those people?

---

I say God doesn't exist. Nor does the Devil. That's about it.
When I say God I mean the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority. I think there's a logical problem with spirit, soul, and miracles to the extent that by definition they defy the normal laws of nature, physics, science (as I know it). Furthermore I think it is possible to explain religious ideology in terms of its historical role, the 'opiate of the masses' argument.
Hope that helps . . . :huh:

---

PS I have no wish to offend anyone with different views, these are just my opinions, and I think it's worth discussing because I reckon a lot of terrible actions get justified in the name of religion of one sort or another...

---

Unusual. Someone defining God, when expressing their beliefs. Definitions I find useful right now:

God: What we worship. For some, God is "what is", for others God is held beliefs about "what is".

Miracle: Something our intellect can't understand, predict, control or explain, but which is experienced to be true.

Spirit: Pure awareness, free of thought. Lacking in specific attributes, lacking in specific form. Not personal. Permanent and unchanging, and so not fabricated, composed or compounded of anything.

Soul: Spirit.

Thought: The oversimplification, abstraction and distortion of past experience into memory. And further model-building (oversimplification, abstraction and distortion) based on that memory. Illusion.

Belief: Being inflexible to new input, and new viewings, through current thought being worshiped as God.

Creator of the universe: Thought

Ruler of the universe: Thought, for people caught in belief. Spirit, when illusion is seen through.

Source of moral authority: Thought

Ideology: Thought

Logic: Taking certain assumptions to be true, and then seeing the universe through the filter of those beliefs, using the intellect, to give the illusion of certainty of conclusion.

Religion: The distortion of spirituality into belief, used to control self and more commonly others.

 

[Rex]

I would be interested if either of you could explain your arguments in a paragraph....

This is what I am seeing right now. Belief is being trapped in thought, seeing and experiencing through the filter of thought. Enquiry is being able to look afresh, free of thought, free of past. Belief is "living" in the past and projecting the past into the future. Enquiry is being in the now, in reality, living. Traditionally, religions distort life (enquiry, being in the now, spirituality) into belief. Freedom and life is what happens when not trapped in the illusion of thoughts and images.

 

[lsz]

Now that was worth reading Rex

 

[Rex]

Can beliefs be dismantled when they are no longer working for us? Say, for example, when we start destroying the planet or killing each other in world wars through fear, greed and ignorance? And what is the mechanism through which we can dismantle beliefs, to not be subject to the cause and effect of our conditioning?

The mechanism of course is the removing of the material cause and raison-d'etre of the offending beliefs.

I skipped over this answer of yours SER8. It is quite intriguing.

Let's say we want to seek out and remove any beliefs which are no longer working for us. What do you see as the material cause and raison-d'etre of these dysfunctional beliefs? Take it away from the specific, I'm looking for the general pattern. What would you do to identify and eliminate them?

 

[Rex]

Now that was worth reading Rex

Powerful questions and open minds can help get to the heart. Thanks for both Isz.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Can beliefs be dismantled when they are no longer working for us? Say, for example, when we start destroying the planet or killing each other in world wars through fear, greed and ignorance? And what is the mechanism through which we can dismantle beliefs, to not be subject to the cause and effect of our conditioning?

The mechanism of course is the removing of the material cause and raison-d'etre of the offending beliefs.

I skipped over this answer of yours SER8. It is quite intriguing.

Let's say we want to seek out and remove any beliefs which are no longer working for us. What do you see as the material cause and raison-d'etre of these dysfunctional beliefs? Take it away from the specific, I'm looking for the general pattern. What would you do to identify and eliminate them?

That is hard to answer from an individual point of view. Most people want to keep seeking 'the truth', in my opinion, but as you say changing established views can be very difficult. In my experience it is almost a matter of chance, in stumbling across fresh ideas that I hadn't previously been exposed to. Of course, a person could also decide to go out of their way to seek new ideas. But typically something they've stumbled upon has inspired that outlook...

As for how we seek out and remove beliefs which are no longer working for us as a community ... well, that is of course a process of political education by way of exposing the ways in which those beliefs are counter-productive. As an example, racist ideology has served to keep different groups from uniting against a common enemy. The White Australia policy, and more recently the Buy Australian campaign, pitting workers here against the workers of Asia, not for the ultimate benefit of the workers here but for the benefit of the capitalists.

Such beliefs will never be wiped out completely until the material conditions that spawn and depend on them are wiped out and replaced by a truly democratic system. Not a system that depends on exploiting the majority for the benefit of a privileged minority.

Well . . .you did ask, lol

 

[Rex]

Yes I did, lol. Ask and ye shall receive it seems.

I'm hearing that to remove dysfunctional beliefs, we can:
1. stumble upon fresh ideas by chance
2. decide to seek out fresh ideas
3. actively expose the ways current beliefs are counter-productive
4. remove and replace the main causes of dysfunctional beliefs.

Presumably these methods all apply both to the individual and to the group.
And whatever we learn works with the individual may work with the group and vice versa. It may be simpler starting with the individual because then we have more under our direct control.

How do we first get an inkling that our beliefs may not be working for us?

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Usually the first inkling is that someone else's beliefs may not be working for you. Then you think, **** do I believe that? Well no, as a matter of fact I do not.

 

[Rex]

And how do we know someone else's beliefs are not working for us? Before the thought.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Something hurts.

 

[Rex]

Yeah, that's how I know too.