Manly in Crisis (a mega thread)

[Ryan]

@highlandeagle no I'm not going to dislike your post. I'm glad I asked for your contribution, and thank you for responding.

Reading your post actually shows we don't disagree on everything, and actually, you have highlighted the really deep problem - deeper than the 7 - we have no leaders!

You are right, DCE has not behaved like a leader. He says all the nice words, but does not hold his teammates to account. Des is not longer the leader he was . Instead he looks like a snake-oil salesman spruiking all his technical detail each week on what went wrong, yet fails to mention when the team don't put their bodies on the line or make the recovery tackles in broken play. They look pathetic out there, and Des won't admit it. His press conference reveal nothing and are at best painful to watch. How can we fix a problem if he keeps denying we have one?.

Worse still, and hear me out, where your thoughts and mine come together to uncover the real problem is this:

By Des and DCE stepping up to defend Jerseygate it made them look like the leaders. As we have said, they are not. Yet in the background, and avoiding accountability are the real leaders and influencers who have kept their traps firmly shut - i.e the Executives at the Manly club for their total mismanagement of this and other debacles this year, and the leader of the 7 who could have stepped up like a leader and explained why they boycotted that game. That's all we fans would have needed. This is not about gay rights, or Polynesians, or any label you could want to put to this - it is about stepping up as human beings and giving their perspective to us. We are not stupid. We know and agree the 7 were not given enough time to consider the situation, and by stepping up like leaders and explaining themselves we would have understood and moved on.

However, by these execs and the 7 leadership not stepping up and talking like leaders, they have disrespected all of us as paying fans of Manly, and now we are all suffering for it. Instead, we have these two fake leaders stepping up and saying words that are contrary to their actions as coach and team captain. Empty words.

So here we are. The team is falling apart on and off the field, the 7 are isolated as part of the team and also rightly by us, and we as fans are left isolated, and there is no communication between any of us.

That's why we are all angry, because we truly fear long-term repercussions for this club that could have been avoided.

NYEagle

Spot on mate. We need the re-incarnation of Ben Kennedy. Someone who sets that bar / benchmark. If that means we lose a marquee player , to pry them off a team, so be it - but I do agree that's where it starts.

Jake is amazing, but I couldn't see him ripping in to anyone - he's too empathetic and kind (and that's a good thing). But we need a steel nosed hard-arse, that doesn't tolerate half efforts or bull**** - even off the park. A true leader.

I think our team (a group of individuals right now, not playing as a team) are desperately crying out for someone to follow.

 

[NYEagle]

T

Wow. Very good.

Thanks Bro. Comes from the heart. It's great to see all your valuable contributions, and those of many others here too. Lots of intelligent debate.

NYEagle

 

[NYEagle]

Spot on mate. We need the re-incarnation of Ben Kennedy. Someone who sets that bar / benchmark. If that means we lose a marquee player , to pry them off a team, so be it - but I do agree that's where it starts.

Jake is amazing, but I couldn't see him ripping in to anyone - he's too empathetic and kind (and that's a good thing). But we need a steel nosed hard-arse, that doesn't tolerate half efforts or bull**** - even off the park. A true leader.

I think our team (a group of individuals right now, not playing as a team) are desperately crying out for someone to follow.

Thanks Merchant. Yeah Jake is a strong talker and passionate, but he is too nice a guy and is best to concentrate on his footy.

That's why I don't mind Manly bringing in a bit of hard arse, bad boy, experienced player to put in a year or two and tell a few of our lost team members a bit of truth.

NYEagle

 

[mickqld]

Don't bother mate. we have to pretend things at the club are going along swimmingly. If you don't think in that positive way, we've been told you're not allowed to suggest or discuss it here, because it makes you negative / toxic.

Yeah well I don't give a fu*k who thinks I'm a fukwit or not anymore. I'm sick of watching this great club disintegrate into a farce and nothing constructive being done to fix it.

 

[AndWeDon'tCare]

I suppose there’s no path for Mestrov to secretly put together a group to make Penn an offer he can’t refuse, so to speak?

That would be ideal and I'm sure if the opportunity arose, the CEO would be an integral part of facilitating the discussions.

Our problem, from an ownership perspective, is that Penn and his family and the other luminaries who whisper sweet nothings into their collective ears, firmly believe that without them we wouldn't exist and wish to be compensated accordingly as well as recovering the cash injections that they, the family, have made over the years.

The unfortunate aspect to all this was that the Penn family were "in the right place at the right time" a while ago and have gained quite a deal from their transactions over the years.

We need a very wealthy, liquid and cash- generous owner or consortium willing to part with a minimum of five million dollars per annum outside of NRL funding and the like.

It's a costly business owning a rugby league club but then again, as many have said, it's not a game where one will make a significant return on their "investment."

 

[Seagles68]

Ok I’ve posed this question on a few other threads but really I think at the point we are at it deserves its own thread.

So , without any inside knowledge , or without it being mentioned in the media ( it might after this ) it’s really a simple question , has one ( either ) or both lost the dressing room??

And is this more what’s happening than a split in the group because of “ pridegate”??

This isn’t a question of , “ can Des Coach “ or “ is DCE doing a good or bad job “ rather , has it actually gone past that point already.

Over to you oh faithfull Silvertailers

Mark, I reckon you can take a bit out of a lot of the posts when trying to answer this one. For example I agree with @47MVEagle coz to me, it's inconceivable Dessie has lost at least half the team after the way he supported both Fainu and the 7. And Tom, Jake, Croker and others still seem genuine in their support for Des. You don't hear them say much about DCE but that could just be coz they're never asked. Can't say.

And when @Woodsie talks about Dessie's age, there certainly could be somehting to that. However, age alone should not be the only factor given that Bennet is what, 104, and he can still bring a team of various backgrounds and personalities together. I know that's not just what Woodise said so I'd also say that Des is certainly a bit out there and he may well just be passed the whole coaching thing. But he's not an ignorant person, he's a smart fella and has always seemed to understand what makes people tick. He would be all over the differing cultures within the group. So I agree that I don't think the rainbow episode will be a breaking point, I mean, caring and managing his players seems to be his biggest accolade. So to the "feral" supporters (wherever) doing whatever it is they do, hopefully that's just a minority and something that could be addressed relatively easily with the playing group. But if the players really can't get past it, then so be it but that's a problem. Not just now but also for any future players we might want to attract to the Club.

And I'm not sure if it's narcissism @mickqld but certainly pigheadedness. And I agree with you and @HK_Eagle that DCE should not be captain next year. He's not a leader when you need one, he's a players advocate at best. Yes, when he pulls off a great 40/20 or a winning field goal, they all love him. But when they watch the majority of his do nothing kicks or circle running, they must all think what we do - WTF. Having said that, we're stuck with him and he still has something to offer but for mine, Tom should be captain. Or even a Tom and Jake co-captain arrangement. Altho, that could be fraught and a strain on the family dynamics. Can you imagine them having a barney on the field coz they didn't agree with each other.

And finally (coz this has been very long winded, sorry) I agree with @bob dylan and with what you wrote yesterday about Corporate, the fans/members really need to hear something from them about how the last couple of months have imploded. If they want to continue signing up memebrs, they need to stump up first. Altho, I'll still bloody renew!!

 

[Bomb Voyage]

That would be ideal and I'm sure if the opportunity arose, the CEO would be an integral part of facilitating the discussions.

Our problem, from an ownership perspective, is that Penn and his family and the other luminaries who whisper sweet nothings into their collective ears, firmly believe that without them we wouldn't exist and wish to be compensated accordingly as well as recovering the cash injections that they, the family, have made over the years.

The unfortunate aspect to all this was that the Penn family were "in the right place at the right time" a while ago and have gained quite a deal from their transactions over the years.

We need a very wealthy, liquid and cash- generous owner or consortium willing to part with a minimum of five million dollars per annum outside of NRL funding and the like.

It's a costly business owning a rugby league club but then again, as many have said, it's not a game where one will make a significant return on their "investment."

What about Rami, from all accounts he has loads in money, loves manly and is up for it - is he still on the radar?

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Mark, I reckon you can take a bit out of a lot of the posts when trying to answer this one. For example I agree with @47MVEagle coz to me, it's inconceivable Dessie has lost at least half the team after the way he supported both Fainu and the 7. And Tom, Jake, Croker and others still seem genuine in their support for Des. You don't hear them say much about DCE but that could just be coz they're never asked. Can't say.

And when @Woodsie talks about Dessie's age, there certainly could be somehting to that. However, age alone should not be the only factor given that Bennet is what, 104, and he can still bring a team of various backgrounds and personalities together. I know that's not just what Woodise said so I'd also say that Des is certainly a bit out there and he may well just be passed the whole coaching thing. But he's not an ignorant person, he's a smart fella and has always seemed to understand what makes people tick. He would be all over the differing cultures within the group. So I agree that I don't think the rainbow episode will be a breaking point, I mean, caring and managing his players seems to be his biggest accolade. So to the "feral" supporters (wherever) doing whatever it is they do, hopefully that's just a minority and something that could be addressed relatively easily with the playing group. But if the players really can't get past it, then so be it but that's a problem. Not just now but also for any future players we might want to attract to the Club.

And I'm not sure if it's narcissism @mickqld but certainly pigheadedness. And I agree with you and @HK_Eagle that DCE should not be captain next year. He's not a leader when you need one, he's a players advocate at best. Yes, when he pulls off a great 40/20 or a winning field goal, they all love him. But when they watch the majority of his do nothing kicks or circle running, they must all think what we do - WTF. Having said that, we're stuck with him and he still has something to offer but for mine, Tom should be captain. Or even a Tom and Jake co-captain arrangement. Altho, that could be fraught and a strain on the family dynamics. Can you imagine them having a barney on the field coz they didn't agree with each other.

And finally (coz this has been very long winded, sorry) I agree with @bob dylan and with what you wrote yesterday about Corporate, the fans/members really need to hear something from them about how the last couple of months have imploded. If they want to continue signing up memebrs, they need to stump up first. Altho, I'll still bloody renew!!

Very well said 68

 

[mave]

That would be ideal and I'm sure if the opportunity arose, the CEO would be an integral part of facilitating the discussions.

Our problem, from an ownership perspective, is that Penn and his family and the other luminaries who whisper sweet nothings into their collective ears, firmly believe that without them we wouldn't exist and wish to be compensated accordingly as well as recovering the cash injections that he the family has made over the years.

The unfortunate aspect to all this was that the Penn family were "in the right place at the right time" a while ago and have gained quite a deal from their transactions over the years.

We need a very wealthy, liquid and cash- generous owner or consortium willing to part with a minimum of five million dollars per annum outside of NRL funding and the like.

It's a costly business owning a rugby league club but then again, as many have said, it's not a game where one will make a significant return on their "investment."

I guess one could make a gazillion off a nearby club, and then use that money over the ensuing years to bolster the footy club.

Or one could also make a gazillion off a nearby club, and cry poor for the rest of time.

Choices, choices......

 

[mickqld]

We're a joke and anyone that can't see that has their head up their arse.

Meanwhile Penn and Mestrov are still determined to push on with this stupid Rd 1 game in America that no other team is interested in and can you imagine how much we'll get flogged by if it happens. They're fuking deadset clowns in denial.

 

[mave]

Meanwhile Penn and Mestrov are still determined to push on with this stupid Rd 1 game in America that no other team is interested in and can you imagine how much we'll get flogged by if it happens. They're fuking deadset clowns in denial.

It's madness.....we need another distraction like we need a hole in the head.

 

[fLIP]

@Mark from Brisbane a very interesting point was made by Brent Read on the Sunday footy show. The great coaches have all mentored successors. Bennett , Bellamy, Robinson have given the nrl several coaches. Des has given none. Why ? Because the guy is a narcissist. DCE is in the same class. These 2 believe they alone have all the answers, that their way is the right way. Look at the carnage Des left the Dogs in.
For DCE he lost respect back in 2012 when he pushed for salary upgrades which threw him way offside with the players who took unders to keep a premiership team together. Then the backflip fiasco sealed our fate for a decade of underachieving due to unbalanced salary cap.
Watch the way DCE plays. It's all about self preservation , reason why he's hardly ever been injured. Our right side defense has been a shambles for years. He is a good halfback but he is not a leader of men, he's not a game manager, he's not someone who'll say come with me and do the hard yards when it's needed like Munster, Cleary, Hunt, Keary, Reynolds do.
In answer to your question Yes they have both lost the respect to lead a group of young men into battle.

I put Cleary in the same mould. He’ll take the line on more and plays tougher than DCE but he goes to water when his team isn’t dominant.

I’d give him a year or two until the panthers are stripped of a bit of class and he’ll come back to the pack substantially.

 

[Seagles68]

I put Cleary in the same mould. He’ll take the line on more and plays tougher than DCE but he goes to water when his team isn’t dominant.

I’d give him a year or two until the panthers are stripped of a bit of class and he’ll come back to the pack substantially.

I reckon you could be right. The only problem is they have a huge breeding ground and enough pokies money to keep him on the front foot for quite some time.

 

[Seagles68]

On a lighter note - I can't pretend to understand the power dynamics within our club - it seems to me that at the end of the day it's the bloke with the red cheeks and cheque book that has the final call on things (for better or worse) But I do have one question that's been bothering me about Tony Mestrov's appointment. Given our recent history where we've struggled to beat top 8 teams and given our recent history where we can't beat Souths and given the our CEO's history with Greyhound NSW - Are we now destined never to catch the bunnies?

Yeah, sorry @Woodsie - I know where the door is.

 

[ManEagle]

Maybe it's neither Des or DCE who has lost the dressing room.
Maybe it's the prick who built it ?

Seriously though I can't see Des losing the players after he goes into bat for them and sticks through thick and thin if anything it commands loyalty.
DCE is a tricky one, I think and have done since the early rounds this year the players have lost respect for him for one reason or another, just the way the interaction is on field both when the going was good and when the chips were down.

Personally I think the real disconnect is the owners and board, by owners I don't just mean Penn, the other part owner who was acting CEO during the the past few months need to accept accountability, unfortunately if I'm right how do you fix an issue with owners and board. Sack the players, coach and captain but the problem remains to fester with a new crop down the track.

Thankfully I'm usually wrong, so we won't have a problem !

 

[Wombat64]

Meanwhile Penn and Mestrov are still determined to push on with this stupid Rd 1 game in America that no other team is interested in and can you imagine how much we'll get flogged by if it happens. They're fuking deadset clowns in denial.

I read that and I still can not believe how bad an idea that is. It only further proves how stupid they are and how big the ego must be. Manly is just a play thing to the Penn family. Rainbows one week and games in the US next. Now that some of them are living in the US they just want to show off at our teams expense.

 

[Technical Coach]

We are losing approx 500 games experience in 1st grade and rep games with Foran, Walker, Taupau and Davey leaving. This will take years to get experienced heads into our side so now is the perfect time to rebuild from the ground up. Get rid of the staleness and get in new ideas, new coaching, new captain and new blood. Yes we will be down the bottom for a couple of seasons but the period 2007-2014 was built from the ground up. Time to go Des and time for new leadership on the field.

I still think Hasler can sharpen his methods but he needs to revert back to the more hardline fresh approach he had when he first came onto the scene, he is coaching in a far too predictable comfortable manner that hasn't changed or tweaked enough.

The Sharks resemble the return of Manly becoming a force again under Hasler but in only one year lol, there is a new found enthusiasm on the beaches but this time not on the Northern Beaches.

At least the Sharks have some kind of all round improvement with developments to build excitement beyond just spending money on the playing group.

The problem with Manly as a club trying to move forward is we focus too much on the playing group and not an all round sustainable approach in every area of the club to be more attractive.

 

[MIGHTYEAGLE]

We're a joke and anyone that can't see that has their head up their arse.

With extra lube

 

[RedEagle]

Extend Des until 2024 & announce we are wearing our pride jersey in round 1.

Then we’ll see who’s really in or out.

 

[niccipops]

Though our form is heartbreaking for us fans and absolutely dreadful to watch it could be as simple as, without our best players, including our heart and soul in Jake, we're ****e and have nothing to play for. We can't finish higher or lower than 11. Rubbish but not the end of the world. It appears some young guns are being trialled - but not passing so far. Weekes could be good.
I thought Koula and Parker had really solid games in our latest demolition. At times the defence was actually quite solid but that left the team busted with absolutely nothing in attack.
As for league itself, even though I'll always be Manly, I'm getting more and more disinterested.
On my extreme annoyance list are:
Captian's challenges.
The bunker.
Constant rule changes.
Penalty blitz trends.
6 agains.
Extremely over the top player celebrations after tries or forcing an error.
Allowing Dane Gagai to punch the **** out of someone during origin but binning players for honest mistakes or momentum accidents in the normal rounds.
Neck clutching just to get a penalty.
Dummy halves throwing their arms up to ref after every single tackle.

I miss what we used to watch.

And Go Manly for 1 more round this year, and forever.
Hopefully 2023 is better.