Should Mat Johns be stood down from the footy show?

[Rex]

Ever noticed how the most moralistic people are those who moralise about other people moralising?

 

[CliffyIsGod]

[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg222794#msg222794 date=1242284943]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222775#msg222775 date=1242281669]
[quote author=DSM5 link=topic=180326.msg222774#msg222774 date=1242281378]
Imagine it's your sister or daughter Cliffy.  Mathew John's wife is very attractive so just why the idiot would want to go spoil that just points to where his intelligence is.  It's all in his dick.  

Pity you don't keep your views similar to Stewarts situation. If he gets off, do you want him sacked for thinking with his dick?


[/quote]

Who said that Brett was thinking with his dick?  John's admitted he did but Brett hasn't and won't because nothing happened.
[/quote]

He's just a child Tooks, his attention span isn't long enough to process that complexity. 
[/quote]

If nothing happened, Brett would not have been arressted and charged.

 

[Matabele]

Ever noticed how the most moralistic people are those who moralise about other people moralising?

;D  Too true

 

[Ian Martin tragic]

All righty rightly or wrongly I'll ask this question?

Why is it so socially unacceptable that a female could willingly participate in group sex?

Females drink to excess
Females have one night stands
Females have glassed other women
Females have violently bullied other females
Females have committed murder

Why is there no responsibility for a females role in this?

Maybe that is why the young lady & 4 Corners, in this Cronulla incident chose that avenue - that there were questions as to consent...as society won't accept a willing participant.. Just a thought?

mwsneagle, I don't know what you are trying to say here. 'Claire's' account was of being degraded, dehumanised ('I was nothing to them', they didn't speak to me, just to each other, etc'). the 4 corners cited medical assessments of her suffering post-traumatic stress disorder, being suicidal, etc, on disability, and the policeman's impression of her state, and so on.

The 4 corners construction was that this was an incident consistent with others, pointing to habitual attitudes and practices, in a male sport where the players enjoy celebrity, fame and rewards for their risk-taking, pumped up testosterone performances.

lots of posts so far have suggested that this incident is a storm in a teacup, that there was consent, no charges were laid. counter evidence from a former workmate of 'Claire' is out there now also. now, this may or may not be right. I don't know. nobody posting here does. I can tell you only that on balance I believe her version of the events and what they meant and did to her.

But this incident DOES take its place in a long line of others, and these are just the reported ones. OF COURSE there are women who are sexually active and promiscous and chasing sex with footy players and other kinds of celebs. OF COURSE some of them might like a group sex encounter. But do you really think the kind of actions/assaults that were the subject of the 4Corners report were all down to ****-stirring women causing trouble after enjoying themselves? putting yourself through the juridico-legal processes for sexual assault proceedings (with a statistical success rate around 10%) is not exactly something most people would have the motivation to do just to cause trouble.

the issue is certainly bigger than the rugby league community, but it IS particularly apparent there because of what it is, as the 4corners program pointed out. And with media coverage comes the good and the bad on the wheel of fame. matty johns, ringleader of a sexual humiliation? maybe. scapegoat? definitely.

 

[ConcernedSupporter]

It's probably been posted but check out this new information

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25477148-421,00.html

 

[Rex]

It's probably been posted but check out this new information
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25477148-421,00.html

If that account of the girl bragging is truthful, then this is a great case study in not simplistically believing appearances.  Can and does post traumatic stress disorder develop over time?  Having an experience, I maintained an internal and external image of being in control and functional for a period, especially given the circumstances, and it took some significant time to realise the post traumatic stress impacts that had developed. Similarly some people apparently fall apart immediately with the death of a loved-one, others seem to cope extremely well and fall apart down the track.

Equating consent with no harm being done is very simplistic thinking. A way of thinking ingrained in the stereo-typical American culture.  Con-men focus on what they can get away with without suffering legal consequences, and without concern for harm done to others. Consent is a legal issue. Doing no harm is a human issue.

 

[DSM5]

Check out the studies on post traumatic stress disorder with regards to Iraq vets and you can see that stress can surface years later.  Johns took advantage of a situation and then walked away from what came next.  Total dog imo.  His wife is also the loser in this.  What else did this idiot get up to on his 'away' trips?  Then comes home and slips it to Trish.  yuk!  Just another sexual opportunist.  His admitted behaviour in no way has any bearing on Brett's alleged behaviour.

 

[Guest]

[quote author=Matabele link=topic=180326.msg222796#msg222796 date=1242285044]
[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg222794#msg222794 date=1242284943]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222775#msg222775 date=1242281669]
[quote author=DSM5 link=topic=180326.msg222774#msg222774 date=1242281378]
Imagine it's your sister or daughter Cliffy.  Mathew John's wife is very attractive so just why the idiot would want to go spoil that just points to where his intelligence is.  It's all in his dick.  

Pity you don't keep your views similar to Stewarts situation. If he gets off, do you want him sacked for thinking with his dick?


[/quote]

Who said that Brett was thinking with his dick?  John's admitted he did but Brett hasn't and won't because nothing happened.
[/quote]

He's just a child Tooks, his attention span isn't long enough to process that complexity. 
[/quote]

If nothing happened, Brett would not have been arressted and charged.
[/quote]

From what I have heard the cops charged him because they were told to by senior police as a result of lenient treatment of other Manly football players last year.

The charge was based on the girls statement and they thought that they would have DNA support as well.  As we know there was no DNA evidence so the cops case is very flimsy and from what I have heard it is unlikely that the case will even get to court.

It seems like it is quite easy to have someone arrested and charged these days and then the cops let the DPP and solicitors sort out whether to proceed or not.  I guess it is the new world of litigation. 

 

[DSM5]

I believe you're right Tooks.

 

[Ian Martin tragic]

'Equating consent with no harm being done is very simplistic thinking' (rex)

is right. To me this is where the issue lies beyond the specific cases raised in the program and it is evident from this thread and comments in the media that some of the uglier more dangerous mindsets about women, sex and what it is to behave like a man will die hard in rugby league clubs (and more generally in society).

the workshop (shown in the 4corners) comparing scenarios where a women is shared around and a man is in similar circumstances (pissed, vulnerable) are useful illustrations about the assumptions that support these attitudes.

I thought the 4 corners program's overview approach about the paradox of promoting and rewarding 'warrior' like risk-taking on the field but needing exemplary social manners (from a bunch of young lads who basically live together) off the field was spot on. We (= rugby league community) should understand this, not do knee jerk scapegoating like the media, but at the same time be all the more clear about acceptable standards of behaviour in the wider community.

I'm of the belief that humans are at the best of times only a little way away from our darker, crueller, uglier drives. just look at how humour works as a pressure release valve. best to start from there and with open eyes approach situations like 'raising' the players of our great game where part of its appeal is skill and subtlety executed in conditions of brutal clashing. to a significant degree that is what clubs are doing, having taken over so much of the lives of these teenagers becoming young adults.  

 

[Mal Cochrane]

I'd like to know if she admits asking that cronulla prop home after the inciedent occurred.

I've said nothing until now, but whilst we can judge on morals, I get the feeling she was a willing participant with her gloating and unfortunately down the track it's now effecting her.

Without sounding crude..bad luck. It's awful that it's been turned into what it has and the impact on John's career.

If a guy get's 4 girls into bed (ok..dreaming, but it does happen)...and a few days later one of the girls realises she made a mistake because of the effect it's having on her...do the other 3 ladies and guy get shamed and come under police investigation if she makes a complaint?

The guys were guilty of being dumb, and for some unfaithful.

If she did gloat and ask the prop to come back to her house, then time to put Matty back in his job and get on with life.

 

[DSM5]

Matty back in his job.......Please.  He was an awful commentator, grinning, biased and stupid.  Reg Reagan, no loss.  A poor attempt at comedy.  I'll investigate the rest of the muppets on 9 next. 

 

[Rex]

I've said nothing until now, but whilst we can judge on morals, I get the feeling she was a willing participant with her gloating and unfortunately down the track it's now effecting her.

Without sounding crude..bad luck. It's awful that it's been turned into what it has and the impact on John's career.

Whether she gloated, whether she invited another guy back to her home, etc are absolute red herrings as far as Rugby League is concerned. Looking for justifications for outdated views simply doesn't cut it.  Blind Freddie can sense that there is a risk of significant damage to a girl when placed in a situation like this.  The guys thought with their dicks and didn't give one second of thought to potential damage to the girl.  If Matty Johns thought for even one second whether he would want his daughter treated like he was treating this girl, then there is no question what his answer would be.  His wife indicated as much in her answer.

PTSD does not arise in isolation from thoughts.  The girl did some things and got some attention.  Presumably it was when she tried to reconcile these actions with her other beliefs that she began unravelling. When she realised she was simply used, disrespected, demeaned and discarded.  It is in the attempt to make sense of things that we often hit snags.  It is no surprise that the worst impacts occurred for her after a delay.

Even if you choose to hold a different view, the harsh reality is that your view simply doesn't matter.  Rugby League will lose sponsors and supporters big-time if it doesn't align with prevailing community views.  No amount of forum supporters saying this should not happen will change that. Matty Johns may well make a comeback down the track, but any team or player who ignores current trends is sticking their head in the sand and will suffer the unyielding consequences.

 

[Noodler93]

well, agree with some points there, but the treat like your daughter line doesn't cut it. How many one night stands, whether one on one or more involved, is taken place with either person is wondering whether they would like their daughter or son to be treated as such.

Each person when "consenting " (if she did), they leave temselves to be used or treated like meat, if that's the way we want to put it. But each person has agreed to the "one night of fun". They aren't there to make passionate love...they each want some fun.

Sure guys shouldn't have walked in...sure she could have said something and one of the guys may have ushered them out. If she's calling the next guy on, taking the young frontrower home afterwards, and bragging, who would have thought at the time she was not enjoying it?

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222907#msg222907 date=1242337432]
[quote author=Matabele link=topic=180326.msg222796#msg222796 date=1242285044]
[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg222794#msg222794 date=1242284943]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222775#msg222775 date=1242281669]
[quote author=DSM5 link=topic=180326.msg222774#msg222774 date=1242281378]
Imagine it's your sister or daughter Cliffy.  Mathew John's wife is very attractive so just why the idiot would want to go spoil that just points to where his intelligence is.  It's all in his dick.  

Pity you don't keep your views similar to Stewarts situation. If he gets off, do you want him sacked for thinking with his dick?


[/quote]

Who said that Brett was thinking with his dick?  John's admitted he did but Brett hasn't and won't because nothing happened.
[/quote]

He's just a child Tooks, his attention span isn't long enough to process that complexity. 
[/quote]

If nothing happened, Brett would not have been arressted and charged.
[/quote]

From what I have heard the cops charged him because they were told to by senior police as a result of lenient treatment of other Manly football players last year.

The charge was based on the girls statement and they thought that they would have DNA support as well.  As we know there was no DNA evidence so the cops case is very flimsy and from what I have heard it is unlikely that the case will even get to court.

It seems like it is quite easy to have someone arrested and charged these days and then the cops let the DPP and solicitors sort out whether to proceed or not.  I guess it is the new world of litigation. 
[/quote]

I hope you are right !!!

May 26th will be one of the all time great days if you are

 

[Matabele]

[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg223020#msg223020 date=1242367104]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222907#msg222907 date=1242337432]
[quote author=Matabele link=topic=180326.msg222796#msg222796 date=1242285044]
[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg222794#msg222794 date=1242284943]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222775#msg222775 date=1242281669]
[quote author=DSM5 link=topic=180326.msg222774#msg222774 date=1242281378]
Imagine it's your sister or daughter Cliffy.  Mathew John's wife is very attractive so just why the idiot would want to go spoil that just points to where his intelligence is.  It's all in his dick.  

Pity you don't keep your views similar to Stewarts situation. If he gets off, do you want him sacked for thinking with his dick?


[/quote]

Who said that Brett was thinking with his dick?  John's admitted he did but Brett hasn't and won't because nothing happened.
[/quote]

He's just a child Tooks, his attention span isn't long enough to process that complexity. 
[/quote]

If nothing happened, Brett would not have been arressted and charged.
[/quote]

From what I have heard the cops charged him because they were told to by senior police as a result of lenient treatment of other Manly football players last year.

The charge was based on the girls statement and they thought that they would have DNA support as well.  As we know there was no DNA evidence so the cops case is very flimsy and from what I have heard it is unlikely that the case will even get to court.

It seems like it is quite easy to have someone arrested and charged these days and then the cops let the DPP and solicitors sort out whether to proceed or not.  I guess it is the new world of litigation. 
[/quote]

I hope you are right !!!

May 26th will be one of the all time great days if you are
[/quote]  It'll take longer than that, but it will happen.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Why is that mata ? I thought his next appearance was the one that decided whether it moves ahead or not ?

 

[Matabele]

I think they exchange information at the next one.  Then a judge will decide (and it will take months) whether it goes to trial, unless of course the family drop the charge.

 

[Guest]

[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg223020#msg223020 date=1242367104]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222907#msg222907 date=1242337432]
[quote author=Matabele link=topic=180326.msg222796#msg222796 date=1242285044]
[quote author=tookey link=topic=180326.msg222794#msg222794 date=1242284943]
[quote author=CliffyIsGod link=topic=180326.msg222775#msg222775 date=1242281669]
[quote author=DSM5 link=topic=180326.msg222774#msg222774 date=1242281378]
Imagine it's your sister or daughter Cliffy.  Mathew John's wife is very attractive so just why the idiot would want to go spoil that just points to where his intelligence is.  It's all in his dick.  

Pity you don't keep your views similar to Stewarts situation. If he gets off, do you want him sacked for thinking with his dick?


[/quote]

Who said that Brett was thinking with his dick?  John's admitted he did but Brett hasn't and won't because nothing happened.
[/quote]

He's just a child Tooks, his attention span isn't long enough to process that complexity. 
[/quote]

If nothing happened, Brett would not have been arressted and charged.
[/quote]

From what I have heard the cops charged him because they were told to by senior police as a result of lenient treatment of other Manly football players last year.

The charge was based on the girls statement and they thought that they would have DNA support as well.  As we know there was no DNA evidence so the cops case is very flimsy and from what I have heard it is unlikely that the case will even get to court.

It seems like it is quite easy to have someone arrested and charged these days and then the cops let the DPP and solicitors sort out whether to proceed or not.  I guess it is the new world of litigation. 
[/quote]

I hope you are right !!!

May 26th will be one of the all time great days if you are
[/quote]

May 26 is the day that both sides exchange their evidence before the judge.  Unfortunately it will take many months after this before the judge makes his decision as to whether there is sufficient evidence to go to trial. 

This means that brett won't be cleared until after the season finished.  It was the same with crockett and Lanfranchi.

 

[missing_something]

Be nice if that happened if he’s innocent, but my bet is on the fact he'll plead it down and eventually be stood down or rubbed out by the NRL. I'd be absolutely amazed if he got off and I'd be considering possible fullback options for next year if I was Des.