Trump

[h27272727]

I actually disagree on this one. You only have to see the Dem NY mayoral candidate to see the future of the Democratic Party. Socialism/communist-lite has massive appeal to the disenfranchised, who vastly outnumber moderates/conservatives on a global scale. The future is global socialism overseen by the global elite, and all that that entails. Individual nation states will cease to exist in any meaningful way. Western civilisation peaked in the 1980s/1990s and will never recover. At least with Trump we are going out with a bang. And if you think the level of public discourse has deteriorated through the Trump era, wait until we have all the “diverse” elements of the Leftist “big tent” arguing over the scraps. It will make the 200 year upheaval amongst the Huns/visogoths/vandals/franks/burgundians et al at the end of the Roman Empire seem like a picnic. Can’t see Manly winning any premierships either.

Socialism has always been seen as a scary word. What Mamdani believes in is Democratic Socialism. Essentially, taxing billionaires / millionaires more to fund public infrastructure, transport and the like. Taxing poor people less. Hardly radical. People don’t ever stop to consider just how BIG a billion dollars is. It’s a thousand million dollars

US biggest problem is wealth/power inequality and third world healthcare. Yet contrary to your messaging, they are the wealthiest country in the world. In other words, it’s not an existential crisis in any way, shape or form.

Communism is what you are referring to, whereby everyone gives their everything to the people in power and trusts that they will act in their interest. Soviet-era Communism is what happens when there’s no guiding democratic framework. Without the framework, Russia gradually became undone and devolved into a totalitarian hellhole. The initial ideas of Marx were somewhat followed by Lenin, but Stalin eventually used contextual crisis’s (famine, external threats) to redefine a more totalitarian rendition. Like Trump he installed loyalists and purged news, military, law enforcement ranks to shape the country HE wanted. Like yourself, some people supported it because Stalin convinced people it was do or die, now or never. I wish people like yourself could see that what’s happening in America is history repeating!!

Now socialist ideals just get lumped together with an entirely different beast. Tonnes and Tonnes of videos of Trump fans being asked to “define socialism” and they freeze or make up some nonsense on the spot. This is all part of the reason I kept pulling the uneducated card; because while Americans in general aren’t well-versed in history, MAGA tend to be oblivious to it, or confidently incorrect (the worst kind).

Mamdani’s views are no where near as radical as the “big beautiful bill” and the lies told to MAGA/republicans to get them onboard. Here’s a fact check on various aspects of the bill.

It’ll kick millions of people off Medicaid / cut health insurance from people in the middle class AND add trillions to the deficit. The money goes to tax cuts which are heavily weighted towards the ultra wealthy. Is this what “going out with a bang” looks like? That sense of urgency just screams that Trump’s fear mongering rhetoric has gotten through to you. Don’t be one of them

Check out the above video. What happened since? Notice all the republicans booing it, yet now they advocate for it?? Everything’s played out as predicted right now, and when Biden can see the future better than yourself it’s time to reconsider how deep in the hole you may be

 

[Brookie1973]

I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?

 

[Eagle 1]

I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?

Yea, I've noticed they sometimes say, example, the next Democratic Senator will be, instead of just ...Democrat. This is so irritating.

 

[lsz]

Trump and a historic record: he became the most popular Republican president in the first five months in office

This was revealed by CNN data journalist Harry Enten, who compared the current president's numbers with his Republican predecessors.

voz.us

This is what is wrong with american politics. It used to be where even if you were elected you at least tried to govern for all americans. Overall he is deeply unpopular (and I know that polls can be biased which is why I have included a few)

Donald Trump’s approval rating

Follow our presidential approval rating poll tracker to see how favourably Americans view Mr Trump

www.economist.com

164 days into Donald Trump’s term The president's net approval rating is -12%, up 0.8 points since last week. 42% approve, 54% disapprove, 5% are not sure

President Trump’s Approval Rating: Latest Polls

Track the latest approval rating and polls on Americans’ approval of President Trump.

www.nytimes.com

This is interesting especially when you scroll down to the section that shows a number of polls. Out of the 72 polls only 9 had him with a positive approval rating.

Even his honey moon period only meant that he beat one other president in their first 100 days....his first term

Presidential Job Approval Ratings Following the First 100 Days | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[Brookie1973]

This is what is wrong with american politics. It used to be where even if you were elected you at least tried to govern for all americans. Overall he is deeply unpopular (and I know that polls can be biased which is why I have included a few)

Donald Trump’s approval rating

Follow our presidential approval rating poll tracker to see how favourably Americans view Mr Trump

www.economist.com

164 days into Donald Trump’s term The president's net approval rating is -12%, up 0.8 points since last week. 42% approve, 54% disapprove, 5% are not sure

President Trump’s Approval Rating: Latest Polls

Track the latest approval rating and polls on Americans’ approval of President Trump.

www.nytimes.com

This is interesting especially when you scroll down to the section that shows a number of polls. Out of the 72 polls only 9 had him with a positive approval rating.

Even his honey moon period only meant that he beat one other president in their first 100 days....his first term

Presidential Job Approval Ratings Following the First 100 Days | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

Governing for all Americans;

Biden brands Trump supporters ‘garbage’ — sparking fury among Republicans — as White House tries to cover for him

“The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters.”

nypost.com

Opinion polls;

Why the polls got it wrong on Trump — again

An embarrassing night for forecasts raises questions about how to fix broken lines of communication

www.independent.co.uk

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/04/why-election-polls-were-wrong-in-2016-and-2020-and-whats-changing.html

Pre-election polls in 2020 had the largest errors in 40 years

Public opinion polls ahead of the 2020 election were the most inaccurate in a generation, according to Josh Clinton, Abby and Jon Winkelried Chair and professor of political science, who recently served as chair of a special task force convened by the American Association for Public Opinion...

news.vanderbilt.edu

 

[h27272727]

I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?

And that's a great example again of why elements of both parties are corrupt. It's corporate America, if not the case forever then it has at least been this way since big money started making its way into the political scene decades back. An unaccounted for $24 billion does not conclude that it all got shovelled into offshore bank accounts or anything, but i'd happily put my tin foil hat on and agree this probably is part of what happened there. Who knows.

Nationalism, Christian Nationalism. Two vastly different ideas. You call a Nationalist a Christian Nationalist and they give you a confused look. "we are not the same"

Socialism, Democratic Socialism. Same goes, believe it or not. But i'm not entirely sure you caught my drift on the whole Communism vs Socialism thing by the sounds of that response. What happened in Stalinist Russia is Communism - a totalitarian system that gets rid of all classes and enforces shared ownership of production, resources, infrastructure etc. Total deviation from socialism. Democratic socialism is a deviation but in the other direction.

This video will help understand the nuances of Socialism, Communism and Democratic Socialism (ignore the website, it's first video I stumbled on that covered the three topics fairly succinctly). Im not entirely sure if you're just skipping over these links or not. At the end of the day it is up to you but by taking some time to learn new things it'll only help you keep a wider perspective on things

What is Democratic Socialism?

From Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Bernie Sanders, the term “democratic socialist” has been in the news a lot lately… But what is it? And what exactly is the difference between socialism and democratic socialism? NBC News’ Savannah Sellers breaks all that down and tells you why it's become such...

www.nbcnews.com

Since 80's or so, back when many of MAGA claim US was great, corporate America has been built. From big industries gaining influence in politics to even the music world, it is prevalent. 90-95% of US stocks are owned by the wealthiest 10%. I believe there's a fair bit of statistics on the concentration of business ownership. Many go to work for their minimum wage of $7.25, meanwhile their president takes $53 million worth of golf trips in 2025 ytd (taxpayer money).

The median US household income is just above $78,000 USD. Meanwhile the below figure shows the millions of dollars in operational costs to maintain a single aircraft for various models. Those B2 stealth bombers also cost $2 billion a pop and they have more than 20... just because. Despite this a third of the country seem to think the answer is cutting medicaid and giving tax breaks for the rich.

Under the bill, the average family earning less than $50,000 would get under $300 in tax cuts in 2027, less than $1 a day, while the average tax filer earning $1 million or more a year would receive about $90,000 in tax breaks.

One things for certain is that Trump will push the pendulum so hard that people may start to realise socialism = communism is just a remnant of cold-war propaganda and fear mongering.

 

[Brookie1973]

Socialism: The Opiate of the Corrupt and Ignorant

The overarching message of “The Opportunity Cost of Socialism”—a study recently released by the President’s Council of Economic Advisers (CEA)—is that the advocacy of socialism cannot reasonably be based on policy preferences; its attraction has always been grounded in a combination of wishful...

manhattan.institute

Why Socialism is Always Oppressive, Dictatorial and Corrupt

This essay is Part 2 of a three-part series on socialism: In the first essay in this series, I gave the definition of socialism offered in the Oxford English Dictionary and explained why the essent…

objectivismindepth.com

 

[h27272727]

Trump isn't even aware his big beautiful bill is cutting 1 trillion dollars from Medicaid. ****ing lol. What a messiah.

'Three things Congress shouldn't touch': Trump apparently unaware his bill guts Medicaid

President Donald Trump reportedly appeared to be unaware that the Republican budget legislation, formerly his “One Big, Beautiful Bill,” cuts approximately $1 trillion from Medicaid. In a meeting at the White House on Wednesday, Trump told moderate Republicans not to cut Medicaid, Medicare, or...

www.alternet.org

 

[h27272727]

Socialism: The Opiate of the Corrupt and Ignorant

The overarching message of “The Opportunity Cost of Socialism”—a study recently released by the President’s Council of Economic Advisers (CEA)—is that the advocacy of socialism cannot reasonably be based on policy preferences; its attraction has always been grounded in a combination of wishful...

manhattan.institute

Why Socialism is Always Oppressive, Dictatorial and Corrupt

This essay is Part 2 of a three-part series on socialism: In the first essay in this series, I gave the definition of socialism offered in the Oxford English Dictionary and explained why the essent…

objectivismindepth.com

Again, those opinion articles have very little to do with democratic socialism. i.e. democracy except with greater emphasis on making poor people less poor by taxing billionaires/millionaires more (still likely a drop in the ocean). Many call modern America "late-stage capitalism" because it is not sustainable that some people earn $7.50 w/ tax cuts of $300, while millionaires let their money work for them, before getting higher tax cuts than the median household income... !!

However, I will say that the second link you've provided is a very good read regardless. The debate on the feasibility of Socialism in practice is very common, and the viewpoints expressed here are fairly typical. I myself agree with most points. The author makes the important clarification that full blown Socialism hasn't been rolled out successfully. Argument is that some form of totalitarianism eventually stems from self-interest and/or corruption. This is historically true. But Socialism alone is not totalitarian, it is a utopian concept whereby the people have more control than big business / an oligarchy and wealth is not grossly imbalanced like modern USA. Human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances ensures it can never last long on its own (in my opinion). It tends to devolve into either a corrupt, loose system, or a highly controlled Communist one (note this still looks different case by case).

While i'd argue that what the author is talking about in the below passage is 'post-socialism' (i.e. once devolved into a totalitarian form), he points out that Fascism and Socialism are characterised by similar traits - just on the other side of the spectrum. Specifically, flawed collectivism - the idea that, in the end, only a select portion of the population or community is truly served. This is not a one-off observation/opinion, but rather a commonly accepted linkage. Back to modern day US and Never before has a US administration not even bothered to pretend they care for the interests of all American's. I think you'll find this MAGA movement overlaps a whole lot more with the sides of Socialism that scare you. The only reason you don't care, or won't ever care, is that Trump currently acts for you / in your interests (pretending you are American for a moment).

From the article,

"As we have seen, socialism is based on collectivism, (as is fascism.) The people of a society, to the extent they embrace collectivism, will consider the rights and interests of individuals unimportant, relative to the “rights and interests of the community.” This naturally leads to totalitarianism, central planning, stagnation, corruption, and the inhumane treatment of individuals, including the starvation of political prisoners in forced labor camps. Whenever and wherever a high degree of socialism is tried, it leads to disaster."​

Most view Socialism as a theoretical framework that needs to be constrained to work in practice. Democratic socialism is nothing like full-scale socialism. It is a highly constrained version. It is not even a major deviation from standard democratic politics. But if Sanders/AOC/mamdani et al do gain prominence, they'll have a challenge teaching the ignorant Americans that it's not a bad thing to improve healthcare and put billionaires pocket change to use. Top 3 wealthiest American's have more wealth than bottom 50% combined.

 

[h27272727]

noticed Ive been clogging up the thread past two days so ill log off for a while (will still check in / lurk from time to time).

Like isz said it is not really in our control to change people's minds at the end of the day. Hopefully some of the resources I provided at least helped some widen their ideas one way or another; even if just in relation to a particular topic or two. I do feel I have a somewhat better grasp of the general concerns Trump fans have. Equally, I do get the vibe that many boarded this train some time ago and no fact, example or counterpoint will ever be a fact, example or counterpoint worth considering to them. Perhaps that's just my pessimism seeping through from reading stuff elsewhere online. I think the socialism/fascism link in the last post is an appropriate way to end things for me in this thread; just be wary where Trumpism may end. For the Trump fans in this thread, if you want to support him that's your prerogative. Make sure to stop and question regularly, even if it all seems to make perfect sense. Keep an eye out for how things are going for the groups that Trump doesn't represent. Compare statements over time. Research and fact check from multiple sources, assume all are flawed and piece together the common denominator to form your own stance. Who cares if Trump tells you critical pieces are 'fake', it is important to keep a wide, open perspective. If so inclined, start checking if claims made in articles you read are factual or not. If you ever find yourself agreeing with everything being done, again, stop and question.

For those that like reading, I recommend 1984