Trump

I actually disagree on this one. You only have to see the Dem NY mayoral candidate to see the future of the Democratic Party. Socialism/communist-lite has massive appeal to the disenfranchised, who vastly outnumber moderates/conservatives on a global scale. The future is global socialism overseen by the global elite, and all that that entails. Individual nation states will cease to exist in any meaningful way. Western civilisation peaked in the 1980s/1990s and will never recover. At least with Trump we are going out with a bang. And if you think the level of public discourse has deteriorated through the Trump era, wait until we have all the “diverse” elements of the Leftist “big tent” arguing over the scraps. It will make the 200 year upheaval amongst the Huns/visogoths/vandals/franks/burgundians et al at the end of the Roman Empire seem like a picnic. Can’t see Manly winning any premierships either.
Socialism has always been seen as a scary word. What Mamdani believes in is Democratic Socialism. Essentially, taxing billionaires / millionaires more to fund public infrastructure, transport and the like. Taxing poor people less. Hardly radical. People don’t ever stop to consider just how BIG a billion dollars is. It’s a thousand million dollars

US biggest problem is wealth/power inequality and third world healthcare. Yet contrary to your messaging, they are the wealthiest country in the world. In other words, it’s not an existential crisis in any way, shape or form.

Communism is what you are referring to, whereby everyone gives their everything to the people in power and trusts that they will act in their interest. Soviet-era Communism is what happens when there’s no guiding democratic framework. Without the framework, Russia gradually became undone and devolved into a totalitarian hellhole. The initial ideas of Marx were somewhat followed by Lenin, but Stalin eventually used contextual crisis’s (famine, external threats) to redefine a more totalitarian rendition. Like Trump he installed loyalists and purged news, military, law enforcement ranks to shape the country HE wanted. Like yourself, some people supported it because Stalin convinced people it was do or die, now or never. I wish people like yourself could see that what’s happening in America is history repeating!!

Now socialist ideals just get lumped together with an entirely different beast. Tonnes and Tonnes of videos of Trump fans being asked to “define socialism” and they freeze or make up some nonsense on the spot. This is all part of the reason I kept pulling the uneducated card; because while Americans in general aren’t well-versed in history, MAGA tend to be oblivious to it, or confidently incorrect (the worst kind).


Mamdani’s views are no where near as radical as the “big beautiful bill” and the lies told to MAGA/republicans to get them onboard. Here’s a fact check on various aspects of the bill.

It’ll kick millions of people off Medicaid / cut health insurance from people in the middle class AND add trillions to the deficit. The money goes to tax cuts which are heavily weighted towards the ultra wealthy. Is this what “going out with a bang” looks like? That sense of urgency just screams that Trump’s fear mongering rhetoric has gotten through to you. Don’t be one of them


Check out the above video. What happened since? Notice all the republicans booing it, yet now they advocate for it?? Everything’s played out as predicted right now, and when Biden can see the future better than yourself it’s time to reconsider how deep in the hole you may be
 
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I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?
 
I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?
Yea, I've noticed they sometimes say, example, the next Democratic Senator will be, instead of just ...Democrat. This is so irritating.
 
This is what is wrong with american politics. It used to be where even if you were elected you at least tried to govern for all americans. Overall he is deeply unpopular (and I know that polls can be biased which is why I have included a few)

164 days into Donald Trump’s term The president's net approval rating is -12%, up 0.8 points since last week. 42% approve, 54% disapprove, 5% are not sure


This is interesting especially when you scroll down to the section that shows a number of polls. Out of the 72 polls only 9 had him with a positive approval rating.

Even his honey moon period only meant that he beat one other president in their first 100 days....his first term

 
This is what is wrong with american politics. It used to be where even if you were elected you at least tried to govern for all americans. Overall he is deeply unpopular (and I know that polls can be biased which is why I have included a few)

164 days into Donald Trump’s term The president's net approval rating is -12%, up 0.8 points since last week. 42% approve, 54% disapprove, 5% are not sure


This is interesting especially when you scroll down to the section that shows a number of polls. Out of the 72 polls only 9 had him with a positive approval rating.

Even his honey moon period only meant that he beat one other president in their first 100 days....his first term

Governing for all Americans;


Opinion polls;



 
I know how big $24 billion is. Pity the California Dems seemed to have lost that amount somewhere. No matter, the solution according to Gavin is to sack govt workers, and cut education and health spending. Still, just a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 trillion in improper payments under Biden/Harris. Welcome to the leftist future. Sounds idyllic.

Putting the word “democratic” in front of anything sure makes it sound so nice. What could go wrong?
And that's a great example again of why elements of both parties are corrupt. It's corporate America, if not the case forever then it has at least been this way since big money started making its way into the political scene decades back. An unaccounted for $24 billion does not conclude that it all got shovelled into offshore bank accounts or anything, but i'd happily put my tin foil hat on and agree this probably is part of what happened there. Who knows.

Nationalism, Christian Nationalism. Two vastly different ideas. You call a Nationalist a Christian Nationalist and they give you a confused look. "we are not the same"

Socialism, Democratic Socialism. Same goes, believe it or not. But i'm not entirely sure you caught my drift on the whole Communism vs Socialism thing by the sounds of that response. What happened in Stalinist Russia is Communism - a totalitarian system that gets rid of all classes and enforces shared ownership of production, resources, infrastructure etc. Total deviation from socialism. Democratic socialism is a deviation but in the other direction.

This video will help understand the nuances of Socialism, Communism and Democratic Socialism (ignore the website, it's first video I stumbled on that covered the three topics fairly succinctly). Im not entirely sure if you're just skipping over these links or not. At the end of the day it is up to you but by taking some time to learn new things it'll only help you keep a wider perspective on things


Since 80's or so, back when many of MAGA claim US was great, corporate America has been built. From big industries gaining influence in politics to even the music world, it is prevalent. 90-95% of US stocks are owned by the wealthiest 10%. I believe there's a fair bit of statistics on the concentration of business ownership. Many go to work for their minimum wage of $7.25, meanwhile their president takes $53 million worth of golf trips in 2025 ytd (taxpayer money).

The median US household income is just above $78,000 USD. Meanwhile the below figure shows the millions of dollars in operational costs to maintain a single aircraft for various models. Those B2 stealth bombers also cost $2 billion a pop and they have more than 20... just because. Despite this a third of the country seem to think the answer is cutting medicaid and giving tax breaks for the rich.

Under the bill, the average family earning less than $50,000 would get under $300 in tax cuts in 2027, less than $1 a day, while the average tax filer earning $1 million or more a year would receive about $90,000 in tax breaks.

One things for certain is that Trump will push the pendulum so hard that people may start to realise socialism = communism is just a remnant of cold-war propaganda and fear mongering.

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Trump isn't even aware his big beautiful bill is cutting 1 trillion dollars from Medicaid. ****ing lol. What a messiah.

 

Again, those opinion articles have very little to do with democratic socialism. i.e. democracy except with greater emphasis on making poor people less poor by taxing billionaires/millionaires more (still likely a drop in the ocean). Many call modern America "late-stage capitalism" because it is not sustainable that some people earn $7.50 w/ tax cuts of $300, while millionaires let their money work for them, before getting higher tax cuts than the median household income... !!

However, I will say that the second link you've provided is a very good read regardless. The debate on the feasibility of Socialism in practice is very common, and the viewpoints expressed here are fairly typical. I myself agree with most points. The author makes the important clarification that full blown Socialism hasn't been rolled out successfully. Argument is that some form of totalitarianism eventually stems from self-interest and/or corruption. This is historically true. But Socialism alone is not totalitarian, it is a utopian concept whereby the people have more control than big business / an oligarchy and wealth is not grossly imbalanced like modern USA. Human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances ensures it can never last long on its own (in my opinion). It tends to devolve into either a corrupt, loose system, or a highly controlled Communist one (note this still looks different case by case).

While i'd argue that what the author is talking about in the below passage is 'post-socialism' (i.e. once devolved into a totalitarian form), he points out that Fascism and Socialism are characterised by similar traits - just on the other side of the spectrum. Specifically, flawed collectivism - the idea that, in the end, only a select portion of the population or community is truly served. This is not a one-off observation/opinion, but rather a commonly accepted linkage. Back to modern day US and Never before has a US administration not even bothered to pretend they care for the interests of all American's. I think you'll find this MAGA movement overlaps a whole lot more with the sides of Socialism that scare you. The only reason you don't care, or won't ever care, is that Trump currently acts for you / in your interests (pretending you are American for a moment).

From the article,

"As we have seen, socialism is based on collectivism, (as is fascism.) The people of a society, to the extent they embrace collectivism, will consider the rights and interests of individuals unimportant, relative to the “rights and interests of the community.” This naturally leads to totalitarianism, central planning, stagnation, corruption, and the inhumane treatment of individuals, including the starvation of political prisoners in forced labor camps. Whenever and wherever a high degree of socialism is tried, it leads to disaster."​

Most view Socialism as a theoretical framework that needs to be constrained to work in practice. Democratic socialism is nothing like full-scale socialism. It is a highly constrained version. It is not even a major deviation from standard democratic politics. But if Sanders/AOC/mamdani et al do gain prominence, they'll have a challenge teaching the ignorant Americans that it's not a bad thing to improve healthcare and put billionaires pocket change to use. Top 3 wealthiest American's have more wealth than bottom 50% combined.
 
noticed Ive been clogging up the thread past two days so ill log off for a while (will still check in / lurk from time to time).

Like isz said it is not really in our control to change people's minds at the end of the day. Hopefully some of the resources I provided at least helped some widen their ideas one way or another; even if just in relation to a particular topic or two. I do feel I have a somewhat better grasp of the general concerns Trump fans have. Equally, I do get the vibe that many boarded this train some time ago and no fact, example or counterpoint will ever be a fact, example or counterpoint worth considering to them. Perhaps that's just my pessimism seeping through from reading stuff elsewhere online. I think the socialism/fascism link in the last post is an appropriate way to end things for me in this thread; just be wary where Trumpism may end. For the Trump fans in this thread, if you want to support him that's your prerogative. Make sure to stop and question regularly, even if it all seems to make perfect sense. Keep an eye out for how things are going for the groups that Trump doesn't represent. Compare statements over time. Research and fact check from multiple sources, assume all are flawed and piece together the common denominator to form your own stance. Who cares if Trump tells you critical pieces are 'fake', it is important to keep a wide, open perspective. If so inclined, start checking if claims made in articles you read are factual or not. If you ever find yourself agreeing with everything being done, again, stop and question.

For those that like reading, I recommend 1984
 
noticed Ive been clogging up the thread past two days so ill log off for a while (will still check in / lurk from time to time).

Like isz said it is not really in our control to change people's minds at the end of the day. Hopefully some of the resources I provided at least helped some widen their ideas one way or another; even if just in relation to a particular topic or two. I do feel I have a somewhat better grasp of the general concerns Trump fans have. Equally, I do get the vibe that many boarded this train some time ago and no fact, example or counterpoint will ever be a fact, example or counterpoint worth considering to them. Perhaps that's just my pessimism seeping through from reading stuff elsewhere online. I think the socialism/fascism link in the last post is an appropriate way to end things for me in this thread; just be wary where Trumpism may end. For the Trump fans in this thread, if you want to support him that's your prerogative. Make sure to stop and question regularly, even if it all seems to make perfect sense. Keep an eye out for how things are going for the groups that Trump doesn't represent. Compare statements over time. Research and fact check from multiple sources, assume all are flawed and piece together the common denominator to form your own stance. Who cares if Trump tells you critical pieces are 'fake', it is important to keep a wide, open perspective. If so inclined, start checking if claims made in articles you read are factual or not. If you ever find yourself agreeing with everything being done, again, stop and question.

For those that like reading, I recommend 1984
Thanks. I have read 1984 many times. The scariest book ever written imho. I think there are just as many lessons there for communists/socialists as there are for anyone else. I know Orwell was a “Democratic Socialist”, but the book serves as a warning against the totalitarian nature of both the then Soviet Communist regime and Nazism.

If this is your last post for a while, all the best. I would humbly suggest that you also approach things with an open mind, and not necessarily believe everything you read or hear in left leaning echo chambers. No political ideology is perfect, they all have flaws, and they are all equally open to interrogation and questioning. Cheers
 
This is what is wrong with american politics. It used to be where even if you were elected you at least tried to govern for all americans. Overall he is deeply unpopular (and I know that polls can be biased which is why I have included a few)

164 days into Donald Trump’s term The president's net approval rating is -12%, up 0.8 points since last week. 42% approve, 54% disapprove, 5% are not sure


This is interesting especially when you scroll down to the section that shows a number of polls. Out of the 72 polls only 9 had him with a positive approval rating.

Even his honey moon period only meant that he beat one other president in their first 100 days....his first term

Trumps playing the long game, lets talk about Presidential polling as we get closer to 2028.
 
But Socialism alone is not totalitarian, it is a utopian concept whereby the people have more control than big business / an oligarchy and wealth is not grossly imbalanced like modern USA. Human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances ensures it can never last long on its own (in my opinion). It tends to devolve into either a corrupt, loose system, or a highly controlled Communist one (note this still looks different case by case).
You make some interesting points, as usual. On this bit …

“Utopian” – many mean it as pie in the sky, can never happen in reality. Never is a long time! Homo sapiens first appeared as a distinct species 300,000 years ago and until about 10,000 years ago lived in small, nomadic groups with low population density who typically valued cooperation, sharing, egalitarianism, and social cohesion (or so current thinking says).

10,000 years ago the first agricultural revolution led to a significant shift in human societies - larger, settled agricultural communities. More hierarchical social structures began to evolve. Big business began … what, within the last couple hundred years…? less?

So human social evolution – only in the last 3% of our existence as a species – has undergone radical changes. And the rate of change seems to be accelerating ever faster, certainly since the Industrial Revolution.

Therefore it’s quite possible what looks ‘utopian’ can change very quickly, like nearly everything else.

Second point - you suggest ‘socialism’ can never last long due to "human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances." Not sure precisely what you mean by this. But from what (little) I know of the Russian revolution – which was the first conscious attempt to overthrow capitalism within a country – no sooner had it occurred than the forces of capitalism rallied to attack and bring it down. Not only the ousted capitalist class, but the other capitalist countries – UK, France Japan, the US and others sent troops and supplies to support the various ‘White Army’ forces. Those other countries also cut off trade and imposed embargoes on Russia.

In every other case where capitalism has come under threat from a communist uprising the same thing has happened. For obvious reasons capitalists of the world view communism anywhere as a potential existential threat to their interests and do whatever they can to crush it.

I realise some think they have won this battle! But stepping back to look at history from a wider perspective – hasn’t all this only just begun to play out? We are at a stage of human social and economic development that has never existed before, and the contradictions of capitalism have certainly not been resolved.

As for Donald, his ascension while spectacular is not unique. Capitalism is creaking and groaning in many places around the world, and the US is not the only place where the extreme right is currently gaining in influence.
 
Thanks. I have read 1984 many times. The scariest book ever written imho. I think there are just as many lessons there for communists/socialists as there are for anyone else. I know Orwell was a “Democratic Socialist”, but the book serves as a warning against the totalitarian nature of both the then Soviet Communist regime and Nazism.

If this is your last post for a while, all the best. I would humbly suggest that you also approach things with an open mind, and not necessarily believe everything you read or hear in left leaning echo chambers. No political ideology is perfect, they all have flaws, and they are all equally open to interrogation and questioning. Cheers
Thanks, and yeah this is probably me for a while.

I'm not too sure where the echo chambers comment stems from. If you look back a majority of my arguments were countering points that had been raised. Where I raised new points, I tended to draw on historical knowledge, or current happenings. Other times I made efforts to quantify my arguments (ie. reinforce with statistics). That didn't seem to get much engagement, so I referenced qualitative examples, including perspectives of people that actually know Trump and directly shaped his image (also left out his shadow-writer's insights). After that, I tried citing external videos, research papers and resources. For the more opinion-based pieces I made sure they were reinforcing their own arguments with quantitative or qualitiative data themselves.

It's great you've read 1984 and the reason I engaged mostly with you is that I get the sense you do actually care about avoiding the slippery slope. 1984 does exactly as you said. It also warns of anti-intellectual movements (similar to the Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Nazi Germany examples from earlier) and warns against willingly handing power to a small group - or individual. A party that needs an eternal external threat - real or imagined - and a reactive support base capable of changing their beliefs on a whim. Where contradictory truths can simultaneously exist, such as increasing freedom by taking away freedoms. While I admit to being a little baffled this reinforces your support of Trumpism, I feel you are capable of reflecting on this on your own. There's a great video out there somewhere called 'Trump vs History' for objective mistruths.

I know we won’t see eye to eye on everything, but if you're someone who values calling out misinformation - no matter where it comes from - then at least give Politifact a look. You don’t have to agree with every conclusion, but it’s worth knowing about. It attempts to either validate or disprove political claims. Lets you decide for yourself. After all the final conclusion in 1984 is;

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
 
Governing for all Americans;


Opinion polls;




You know that I agree with you that Biden and others should not call Trump supporters garbage? Just like i find almost all of Trumps rhetoric (like calling bankers Shylocks today) offensive

Also quoting polls for an election is fairly flawed for a variety of reasons which is why the best polls are those that take an aggregate of polls...like the Times
 
Trumps playing the long game, lets talk about Presidential polling as we get closer to 2028.
That is a fair point but also his numbers are only slightly higher than what he had his whole previous term.

He has shown that he is highly effective with "his people" but has failed to bridge the gap on others - which is what will happen in an election where mandatory voting is not in force
 
That is a fair point but also his numbers are only slightly higher than what he had his whole previous term.

He has shown that he is highly effective with "his people" but has failed to bridge the gap on others - which is what will happen in an election where mandatory voting is not in force
Agree, when all is said and done, it's all about getting the swing voters and the independant voters. Although, Trump may get a big chunk of the Moderate Democrat voters who have had enough of the far left radicals in the Democrat Party. The Dems are going to the far left in what they believe and this is where Trump could cash in on the disillusioned moderates. It's a changing and moving political landscape with so much time before 2028.
 
Agree, when all is said and done, it's all about getting the swing voters and the independant voters. Although, Trump may get a big chunk of the Moderate Democrat voters who have had enough of the far left radicals in the Democrat Party. The Dems are going to the far left in what they believe and this is where Trump could cash in on the disillusioned moderates. It's a changing and moving political landscape with so much time before 2028.
The thing is the previous administration was not exactly far left.

Also to be clear I am no fan of UFC and can not believe that we live in a world where the president is saying he will put it on the white house lawn?
 

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