Lack of Energy

[Tragic Eagle]

We played like we believed they were better than us and they kicked our arse.

 

[Technical Coach]

There is a general lack of go forward penetration and spark throughout our squad to win the ruck consistently and make good yardage per set of six against the quality sides.

Not enough variety through the middle in terms of creative ball movement, player movement off the ball needs to be improved so it is not as predictable,lacking offloads that have a well thought out second phase element to it(not saying we lack offloads there is a difference),lacking direct footwork at the line combined with powerful thrusts.

We have big forwards that wind up from way back but predictable and get smashed, both wingers and centres lack powerful thrust, footwork and penetration to help out with our go forward, Jake who is more a link man who makes some yardage based off defences hanging back off his ball playing but is really not a danger himself.

Once Manly get on the front foot against the lesser sides and win the ruck during our go forward sets it then flows into the defence getting on the front foot also and our field position improves along with juice in the tank. Until our go forward is more threatening and consistent we will struggle in games that are a grind against the top sides.

I pretty much gave up after 20mins and stopped watching, i was annoyed big time on some of the low quality attacking structures from the start. The first attacking set in the red zone and DCE is behind the play the ball half interested and trying to sell a blind side option on the last tackle----really fark me. The long pass from dummy half to Jake allows the Panthers to easily read and slide, Jake is not a threat to the middle and is already too wide before passing to Foran in a poor overly wide at depth position that is cramping up his outside options----yawnfest attacking structures from the outset farkkkkkk me.

Another attack with Foran down the short side playing nice fast and direct on tackle 2, next tackle we have no idea or plan to play off this and offer a disorganized slow predictable settler to Marty who gets ball stripped in the farking red zone on tackle 3---this is not good enough in 2022 or even 2012, maybe 2002 for the less technically inclined though lol.

Quality attack and go forward feeds into good defence and improves the juice in the tank by not struggling with field position. Applying points pressure on teams increases unforced errors by either making teams overplay in their own sets to respond with points or tense up due to a lack of self belief they can score and the pressure builds.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I pretty much gave up after 20mins and stopped watching,

Let me guess... you watched the entire Storm game?

 

[Snake]

There is a general lack of go forward penetration and spark throughout our squad to win the ruck consistently and make good yardage per set of six against the quality sides.

Not enough variety through the middle in terms of creative ball movement, player movement off the ball needs to be improved so it is not as predictable,lacking offloads that have a well thought out second phase element to it(not saying we lack offloads there is a difference),lacking direct footwork at the line combined with powerful thrusts.

We have big forwards that wind up from way back but predictable and get smashed, both wingers and centres lack powerful thrust, footwork and penetration to help out with our go forward, Jake who is more a link man who makes some yardage based off defences hanging back off his ball playing but is really not a danger himself.

Once Manly get on the front foot against the lesser sides and win the ruck during our go forward sets it then flows into the defence getting on the front foot also and our field position improves along with juice in the tank. Until our go forward is more threatening and consistent we will struggle in games that are a grind against the top sides.

I pretty much gave up after 20mins and stopped watching, i was annoyed big time on some of the low quality attacking structures from the start. The first attacking set in the red zone and DCE is behind the play the ball half interested and trying to sell a blind side option on the last tackle----really fark me. The long pass from dummy half to Jake allows the Panthers to easily read and slide, Jake is not a threat to the middle and is already too wide before passing to Foran in a poor overly wide at depth position that is cramping up his outside options----yawnfest attacking structures from the outset farkkkkkk me.

Another attack with Foran down the short side playing nice fast and direct on tackle 2, next tackle we have no idea or plan to play off this and offer a disorganized slow predictable settler to Marty who gets ball stripped in the farking red zone on tackle 3---this is not good enough in 2022 or even 2012, maybe 2002 for the less technically inclined though lol.

Quality attack and go forward feeds into good defence and improves the juice in the tank by not struggling with field position. Applying points pressure on teams increases unforced errors by either making teams overplay in their own sets to respond with points or tense up due to a lack of self belief they can score and the pressure builds.

The go forward comment is valid to an extent but the attack was poor because we were losing the ruck...the same structures worked wonders last year and we scored heaps of points.

Everything needs to start off the back of defence; line speed, aggression and good contact so the opposition kick from their own half. They marched up the field and were able to kick to corners from our side of halfway, which meant they could bomb to Saab and bash him as the ball landed. Thus, we continually ruck it out of our red zone on the back foot.

A bit of variety and deception around the ruck would help with go forward, but I don't think the problem is technical...it's more a cattle problem. We've got the wrong type of pack for the rules:
Paseka - big, slow, lacking footwork and gasses from being so big
Keppie - slow, lacking footwork and makes errors when fatigued
Taupau - almost past it
Sipley - big, slow, lacking footwork and gasses
Jake - wholehearted, great defender but very slow
Haumole - beast but lacking leg speed

The game is fast and we are SLOW in the forwards.

 

[ManlyTragic]

There is more energy in a can of red bull than that manly side!

Just sayin’

 

[Damien2812]

Line speed in defence has been a major concern for some time now. I'm not sure what's going on but you would have thought Hasler would have addressed this in the off season. If Manly play like that against the Rorters I'm sure we will lose again.

 

[Technical Coach]

The go forward comment is valid to an extent but the attack was poor because we were losing the ruck...the same structures worked wonders last year and we scored heaps of points.

Everything needs to start off the back of defence; line speed, aggression and good contact so the opposition kick from their own half. They marched up the field and were able to kick to corners from our side of halfway, which meant they could bomb to Saab and bash him as the ball landed. Thus, we continually ruck it out of our red zone on the back foot.

A bit of variety and deception around the ruck would help with go forward, but I don't think the problem is technical...it's more a cattle problem. We've got the wrong type of pack for the rules:
Paseka - big, slow, lacking footwork and gasses from being so big
Keppie - slow, lacking footwork and makes errors when fatigued
Taupau - almost past it
Sipley - big, slow, lacking footwork and gasses
Jake - wholehearted, great defender but very slow
Haumole - beast but lacking leg speed

The game is fast and we are SLOW in the forwards.

Many times at the start of games Manly make good contact in defence but it is almost impossible to sustain good contact and slowing down of the play the ball on every single tackle against mobile, sharp, powerful with good footwork go forward, it only requires one fast play the ball and that can generate two to three fast play the balls.

I mentioned in my reply about a "general lack of go forward penetration" throughout our squad which is talking about our forwards also, but we use our forwards in not the smartest of ways.

You can compensate for an average forward pack with spark and powerful thrust in the backline and back row, but when you are lacking in the back line and back row in the go forward department also the forwards get shown up more for where they are lacking. This is why Manly look good when Tom is creating thrust, or when Dylan Walker is generating penetration through the middle while also able to ball play.

Even in Manly's good years our go forward from the front row was not the greatest, Jason King, Kite, Perry etc and others were poor in the go forward department, they were saved by crisp lateral ball movement and the likes of Watmough,Matai,Taufua,Foran and to a lesser extent David Williams generating good play the ball speed.

I've mentioned last year Haumole might be a beast with some good footwork but it is too much of the hop skip stationary on the spot one on one variety, it looks good sometimes but is not direct enough in general. Keppie and Jake is merely stating the obvious but we are asking too much from a cap perspective to have quality spark and thrust all over the park so we have to work with what we have better or generate more thrust in other areas to compensate.

Manly's attack is good on a flat deck when things go our way and there is thrust from Tom especially in the early tackles, our Red Zone attack where good structures are more important against set defensive lines is poor. Yes the red zone is the hardest point to attack as you are not generating a broken defensive line through either second phase play or getting the defensive line to keep moving backwards and not reading spreads but we have to do much better in this area with the way we plan ahead and structure our plays.

Relying on long range tries from penetrating go forward or early lateral spreads is great to watch but against the stronger defending sides we need more science and well thought out structures that are thinking 2 tackles ahead of the play, when the game is in a grind the long range tries is not where the game will be won, it is the conversion of red zone possibilities along with sustained field position pressure that piles on the points.

 

[Technical Coach]

Let me guess... you watched the entire Storm game?

I lack enough interest in the game these days to watch other games but if i have the time they are one of a few teams i will watch to learn from.

I doubt Manly would win a first game with the amount of injuries and players missing like the Storm suffered in that game, Bellamy must be doing something impressively right to have such a quality record in the first game.

Nah lets just focus on the cap cheating that most clubs do anyway and was more a biproduct of their success than the creator of the success, or lets focus on refs having a "thing" against Manly----yeah that will turn things around.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I lack enough interest in the game these days to watch other games but if i have the time they are one of a few teams i will watch to learn from.

Lol, without being too technical, it was a yes or no question. And it's OK, answering was not compulsory

 

[Technical Coach]

Lol, without being too technical, it was a yes or no question. And it's OK, answering was not compulsory

I answer in a manner that will answer present and future lame attempts of humour so you don't feel the urge to regurgitate over used Melbourne material.

 

[alafua8]

I thought we competed well against Penrith until our errors and a couple of 6 extras to them slowed us down .Manly in attack should train that when there is a 3 man tackle ,our next 1 or 2 players close to where the tackle occurs jump in and help our player just to stop him from getting pushed backwards a few meters .
Our kicking game was so bad that we scored a try from the only sixth tackle play we did not kick the ball away .We just need to work on a few things ,create space to use our speedsters , learn to cut down dumb ERRORS and we will beat the top teams .Wished we had a chance to play them at home this year before we meet them again in the finals .
We have Schuster ,Walker and Aloiai to come in when they are available so there is a lot more to look forward to in 2022 .Lets go Manly .

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Our structures with the football break down because we get smothered by the defence unafraid to rush up as their is no threat from dummy half. Our go forward seems to only come from one out hit ups and whilst you get some meters early, when the forwards get gassed they stop bending the line. We don't attack the fringe of the ruck enough with runners hitting holes like Turbo or Big O. As a result of being suffocated there is no second phase attack. We need to stop using Turbo as a one out attacking option he needs to be running into holes not into tacklers. Des has a lot of work to do.

 

[maxta]

Technical Coach​

Many times at the start of games Manly make good contact in defence but it is almost impossible to sustain good contact and slowing down of the play the ball on every single tackle against mobile, sharp, powerful with good footwork go forward, it only requires one fast play the ball and that can generate two to three fast play the balls.

maxta​

I watched Manly through Keppie and Jake make as big or bigger contact than the Panthers pack
But there was a key problem.
They do it solo and it ends up a 1 on 1 tackle and even when dominant, the Penrith players were fighting hard and still beat the Manly defender to their feet...often promoting the ball behind the Manly tackler and shutting the Manly marker in an offside position which started a ridiculous roll on effect....no doubt was a tactic and the energy levels kind of double down the momentum and not only drain the defensive line...the following tackles the Penrith players were poking through bending the line and creating a flow on attack that had Manly's D line shot inside out that was back peddling.
In these rigorous, physical games in the future, I will be suprised if Des does not adopt a gang style of tackle involving 3 -4 defenders to slow up that play ball area....

 

[MW66]

While a lot of it has already been said it makes you wonder what we have been doing all off season. I understand a lot of people have already said "it is only game 1", and that is very true, however what we saw on Thursday night against a Top 4 side is reminiscent of what we saw last year in the finals/versus Top 4 sides. Their line speed is so much faster. Tuiavake. S Fainu are more the prototype middle forwards of todays game. There is a reason our line speed is so slow => Tapau/Sipley/Keppie/Paseka.

I also said last year we cannot win a GF with Parker/Harper as our centres. Regardless of his defensive errors Suli was one of the only backs to dent the line on a consistent basis against the top sides. Look how lean and interested he looks at the Dragons.

While I love Foz just compare the athletiscm between Luai and Foran. That is never going to change.

Unless we bring some mobility to the team and develop a serious plan B it may be a long, tough year.

 

[Brookie Bob]

Need to watch sergyaro today see if he still got it

Not from these 'highlights' - perhaps more time needed. Davey looked fast for his try, though.

Panthers v Sea Eagles NSW Cup Highlights Round 1 | Sea Eagles

Watch all the action as the Panthers took on the Sea Eagles in Round 1 of The Knock-On Effect NSW Cup.

www.seaeagles.com.au

 

[Brookie Bob]

Reading- and re-reading- the posts from above - I get the impression that there is actually consensus on many of the issues, just variances on how to fix it, and emphasis on one area versus another ('speed off the line in defence is our number one priority' versus 'speed of attack - particularly around the ruck/from our forwards' is the way to go). And - the recurring theme of our predictability in attack from normal hit ups, versus our long-range entertaining tries from broken field situations.

It's obvious that many feel that our forwards (or the whole team) are not as aerobically fit / fast as opposition teams, notably the three that we couldn't match it with last year (Storm, South, Penrith).

All valid.

A word of caution - I'm always wary of labeling something as an 'absolute' - for example, 'player x is slow'. Player x may be slower than another player at a moment in time, or may be slower off the mark, or may be injured and we may not know it....... but player x may actually be as quick as the players from other teams in comparable positions. In a straight line speed comparison over a set distance. Unfortunately football isn't played that way, particularly in 2022.

From what I've seen, our forwards are not too slow per se ( though Jake looks to have lost a metre of pace since he started, and Keppie also doesn't look....... fast). Paseka and Sipley go quickly when they wind up from distance, and Marty did last year one time when he actually stepped 3 to 4 opposition players - but is not consistent in that regard. Schmole and Bully are both quicker than most forwards of comparable size.

Where our pack seems to lack speed is off the mark - from 0 to 30+ kms per hour in short distances. If you have to run back and forward in defense many times in a game, and if you're doing it at the speed of the slowest player in the line (to maintain a straight line of defence) - who is not that quick, your defense is at best passive. If you don't have speed off the mark, particularly around the ruck, you get smashed in defense. Both attack and defense (now) requires speed off the mark, putting a lot of bodies in motion to increase pressure, and in attack to change the point of the attack unexpectedly. And do it for 80 minutes.

Players like Noel Cleal / Mark Harris etc would probably be short-burst interchange players in today's game.

Let's hope that more game time / match fitness can improve the team. It looked like the Schuster / Walker speed and unpredictability in the middle third / edge of the middle added a fair bit to us last year, it will be good to see them both back in the next few weeks.

 

[GrahamHughesHairHat]

watching SEagles get off our line now reminds me of the way we played when we were the Nthn Eagles.
5 hit ups , get smashed, kick. Opposition knew exactly what we were going to do , had no fear and raced up and hit us in bunches
As opposed to the way we played in Cliffy and in Stewart’s eras when we would move the ball to space , had variety and confidence in moving the ball rather then 1 up continuously.
Des has to change tactics or we will be playing off our line against all the teams with a decent kicking game!!

 

[Ryan]

The best forwards in today's games are very lean and explosive. We have an abundance of lumbering , chunkier types.

Was hoping we'd be really trimmed down this season under Donny. There have been seasons under him where I'd tangibly noticed a difference in the body shapes.

 

[47MVEagle]

The best forwards in today's games are very lean and explosive. We have an abundance of lumbering , chunkier types.

Was hoping we'd be really trimmed down this season under Donny. There have been seasons under him where I'd tangibly noticed a difference in the body shapes.

I think both Jake & Toff have dropped a few kgs.

I saw Jake a few weeks ago & he looked leaner to me but he hunches his shoulders so hard to tell sometimes.

Toff will always be a big hair bear but from what I saw in the trials & on Thursday night he looks to have trimmed down a tad, possibly still a work in progress.

 

[Ryan]

I think both Jake & Toff have dropped a few kgs.

I saw Jake a few weeks ago & he looked leaner to me but he hunches his shoulders so hard to tell sometimes.

Toff will always be a big hair bear but from what I saw in the trials & on Thursday night he looks to have trimmed down a tad, possibly still a work in progress.

Agree mate. Thought that with Toff as well.

Jake is a wonderful player....literally wonderful. Just don't think he's a lock. They need to be able to make breaks (think Gift, Menzies, BK, Kosef & others), I think he really needs to play in the middle.

Maybe Schuster would make an amazing lock. Particularly while Foz is in the team. They say Lock is basically 5/8, so it's the closest thing to his natural position and game? I also hope Schuster has dropped 10-15k/g's this off season.