[Resurrected] SACK Des Hasler!!

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

I kinda think this sums up our divide mate. I talk about what has already transpired and base my opinion on that.

You project what "might" happen, and state it as though it's fact. Comments like, well that coach will never work is guess work mate, with no sound basis to provide backbone to your argument.

We are.coming up to half a decade with Des since his return, and he's a .400 coach (not too far off Trent Barrett type figures). You have said it's the next 17 games that will be the telling games in his coaching ability (out of say 100 games for me) vs. 117 games for you to decide. See how we are arguing semantics really ?

Yes I see your view and I guess i just look out the other window in the house.

I see the Trent debacle and the current Des reign and compare the results taking into account facts and circumstances outside the coaches control.

I can only guess that you don't?

I will attempt to be as fair as I can with the following stats. You directly compare Des to Trwnt so let's deep dive into the numbers.

Trent

2016 - 13th on 20 points
2017 - 6th on 32 points - out first week of finals
2018 - 15th on 16 points

Des

2019 - 6th on 30 points. 2 finals appearances
2020 - 13th on 14 points
2021 - 4th on 34 points 2 finals appearances including a preliminary final
2022 - 11th on 20 points

Just looking at these finishes I think its fair to say Des wins wouldnt you say? 4 finals games to 1. A top 4 finish. A preliminary final.

Yes both have had bad seasons too. I would suggest that Des has had to deal with greater adversity in his first 3 seasons back when compared to TB. Covid. Manase F. Tom out for extended periods. Nrl rule changes. Rainbow Gate.

The Turbo effect. Games played per season

Barrett - 68 over 3 seasons

2016 - 23
2017 - 23
2018 - 22

DES - 43 over 4 seasons

2019 - 12
2020 - 7
2021 - 17
2022 - 7

You could surmise (anecdotally) that Des's results are also skewed due to not having his best player on the field for a large part of his 4 years.

Had tom remained on the park in 2022 I have little doubt we would have made the top 8.

Barrett had 3 full seasons of Tom and still only made the finals once.

You mentioned Des as being a .400 coach in his second stint? I. Not sure thats correct. From stats I can find he had a 49% ratio as of 22nd July. I realise we had the loosing streak but even then I'm guessing it would have only dropped him a few percentage points putting him around 46 I would guess??

Trentbon the other hand after 4 ¹/² seasons was down around 27% was he not?

history ( the bit I like ) suggests Des will bounce back next year. If he doesn't then sure boot him and go in a different direction but until its shown there is nothing left in the cupboard then let's backnour coach and stop bitching.

 

[conanu]

With initials S H ? Or am I off the mark?

Another deadbeat St George loser. For god sake when will we learn, Ex St George players from that era were garbage players that couldn't get the job done and are even worse as coaches. Barrett, McGregor, Brown need I go on. If Manly sign Ryles as a coach dead set I won't be following NRL until he is gone.

 

[Ryan]

Yes I see your view and I guess i just look out the other window in the house.

I see the Trent debacle and the current Des reign and compare the results taking into account facts and circumstances outside the coaches control.

I can only guess that you don't?

I will attempt to be as fair as I can with the following stats. You directly compare Des to Trwnt so let's deep dive into the numbers.

Trent

2016 - 13th on 20 points
2017 - 6th on 32 points - out first week of finals
2018 - 15th on 16 points

Des

2019 - 6th on 30 points. 2 finals appearances
2020 - 13th on 14 points
2021 - 4th on 34 points 2 finals appearances including a preliminary final
2022 - 11th on 20 points

Just looking at these finishes I think its fair to say Des wins wouldnt you say? 4 finals games to 1. A top 4 finish. A preliminary final.

Yes both have had bad seasons too. I would suggest that Des has had to deal with greater adversity in his first 3 seasons back when compared to TB. Covid. Manase F. Tom out for extended periods. Nrl rule changes. Rainbow Gate.

The Turbo effect. Games played per season

Barrett - 68 over 3 seasons

2016 - 23
2017 - 23
2018 - 22

DES - 43 over 4 seasons

2019 - 12
2020 - 7
2021 - 17
2022 - 7

You could surmise (anecdotally) that Des's results are also skewed due to not having his best player on the field for a large part of his 4 years.

Had tom remained on the park in 2022 I have little doubt we would have made the top 8.

Barrett had 3 full seasons of Tom and still only made the finals once.

You mentioned Des as being a .400 coach in his second stint? I. Not sure thats correct. From stats I can find he had a 49% ratio as of 22nd July. I realise we had the loosing streak but even then I'm guessing it would have only dropped him a few percentage points putting him around 46 I would guess??

Trentbon the other hand after 4 ¹/² seasons was down around 27% was he not?

history ( the bit I like ) suggests Des will bounce back next year. If he doesn't then sure boot him and go in a different direction but until its shown there is nothing left in the cupboard then let's backnour coach and stop bitching.

Well constructed and well thought out post mate. I appreciate the effort. What I will say, is a few things:

I say Des is a .400 coach, because he's a 40 something percent coach since his return. The number is fluid and often changing, like you've pointed out, so it's a common way of describing that statistic. But yes, I think he's closer to 45% now. That means he's winning 4.5 games out of 10, rather than 4 (but the point is probably the same) - hence .400 (without having to do maths every time the stat is raised or discussed.

Secondly, why are we both comparing Des second stint to Trent Barrett. Why aren't we setting the bar higher, and comparing him to say Craig Bellamy? He's recently lost Slater, Cronk and Smith and had to transition. He then lost Hynes, and had to deal with Papenhauzen being out more often than not, yet his winning record is outstanding.

Regarding Trent vs. Des. Looking at the worst years to best (since Des return):

Trent - Des
15th -13th
13th - 11th
6th - 6th
N/A - 4th

We are talking two spots at the bottom of the ladder twice.

You're also saying Des hasn't had the best of times with players and outside noise. Didn't Penn agree to put all of Des staffing demands in place for him, including support staff ? Something Trent complained about ? The facilities have 100% been improved with the centre.of excellence. I just don't think it's been all bad for Des.

Then , he's allowed the playing group to fracture and split, culminating in what may be equalling the club's worst ever losing streak round one, next season. That on top of the 2nd worst defensive record in the history of the game over 20 games (second only to the magpie's who couldn't field a full team at the time).

Those close to Des are saying the passion has been sucked out.of him..fair enough, it's actually quite obvious. But if that's the case, move on, and let someone fresh, with new ideas, structures, experiences , someone who IS passionate have a go. Don't stretch this out over money.

End of the day EOL, you've won and I haven't. You've got what you wanted , and Des will be here next season, so the proof will be in the pudding. Will we get off to a good start, and will Des.prove people wrong. Or will it be more of the same. We are starting off with the Bunnies aren't we? Be very interesting.

If we have the same roster (less Foz, Taupau, Walker, Davey and some depth), same coaches (less Randall, Monaghan), the same infighting (Penns, Hasler, Fulton's) good luck thinking we will magically just be better.

Lastly, I don't get the, we would have made the 8 if Tom was on the field rhetoric. We were 3 wins, 4 losses with him IN the team this last season. Again, .400. that's places us around 11th.

 

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

Well constructed and well thought out post mate. I appreciate the effort. What I will say, is a few things:

I say Des is a .400 coach, because he's a 40 something percent coach since his return. The number is fluid and often changing, like you've pointed out, so it's a common way of describing that statistic. But yes, I think he's closer to 45% now. That means he's winning 4.5 games out of 10, rather than 4 (but the point is probably the same) - hence .400 (without having to do maths every time the stat is raised or discussed.

Secondly, why are we both comparing Des second stint to Trent Barrett. Why aren't we setting the bar higher, and comparing him to say Craig Bellamy? He's recently lost Slater, Cronk and Smith and had to transition. He then lost Hynes, and had to deal with Papenhauzen being out more often than not, yet his winning record is outstanding.

Regarding Trent vs. Des. Looking at the worst years to best (since Des return):

Trent - Des
15th -13th
13th - 11th
6th - 6th
N/A - 4th

We are talking two spots at the bottom of the ladder twice.

You're also saying Des hasn't had the best of times with players and outside noise. Didn't Penn agree to put all of Des staffing demands in place for him, including support staff ? Something Trent complained about ? The facilities have 100% been improved with the centre.of excellence. I just don't think it's been all bad for Des.

Then , he's allowed the playing group to fracture and split, culminating in what may be equalling the club's worst ever losing streak round one, next season. That on top of the 2nd worst defensive record in the history of the game over 20 games (second only to the magpie's who couldn't field a full team at the time).

Those close to Des are saying the passion has been sucked out.of him..fair enough, it's actually quite obvious. But if that's the case, move on, and let someone fresh, with new ideas, structures, experiences , someone who IS passionate have a go. Don't stretch this out over money.

End of the day EOL, you've won and I haven't. You've got what you wanted , and Des will be here next season, so the proof will be in the pudding. Will we get off to a good start, and will Des.prove people wrong. Or will it be more of the same. We are starting off with the Bunnies aren't we? Be very interesting.

If we have the same roster (less Foz, Taupau, Walker, Davey and some depth), same coaches (less Randall, Monaghan), the same infighting (Penns, Hasler, Fulton's) good luck thinking we will magically just be better.

Lastly, I don't get the, we would have made the 8 if Tom was on the field rhetoric. We were 3 wins, 4 losses with him IN the team this last season. Again, .400. that's places us around 11th.

Man here is was thinking I would post the longest answer.

I have some thoughts on your points that I really want to get out there ( you can probably guess they don't align) but I've just finished a 17 hour day covering the Queens passing. Haven't slept more than 3 hours a night since last Thursday and my brain is mush.

If you will be so kind to accept a raincheck and I will continue this fact driven discussion in depth very soon.

# standby.......

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Exactly my point. Des is the best we can possibly get in todays market. Why would they sack him to put an unknown in..... just stupid.

Ohhh the stupidity involved with this sack Des and sack DCE campaign is astounding. I would love us to replace DCE but just which good half is replacing him. Let's sack Hasler but which great coach is coming? When you pose these questions to the sack them mob... they either dont care... supposedly anyone is better than either/both of them or they throw up some spurious names that are no chance of being at Manly. Lets smash the joint rip it up and start again... with a hope and it is just a hope that the new coach/half will lead us to better things. People are forgetting the stats I put together that injuries killed our season. Here is the list of players injured/missing/suspended for a decent number of games from our squad of 30:-

Turbo

Lawton

Paseka

Parker

Walker

Keppie

Davey

Garrick (played injured for 8 games)

Saab

Burbo

Tu'itavake

Schuster

Boyle

Now out of those Turbo, Lawton, Paseka, Keppie, Schuster, Parker and Boyle all have been for significant periods and all would be in our best 17 with maybe the exception of Boyle. That is around 40% of our best 17. At best it created a huge dent in our depth not to mention you could probably argue that Turbo and Lawton's losses were critical given Turbo is our best player by far and Lawton an integral cog who can play a number of positions off the bench and these were really really early in the season injuries.

But yes lets sack and have no plan to get in people with a realistic shot at being much better than what we have. Absolute moronic logic of the highest order!

 

[robbiea]

Steady on @Brisbane Tragic .
It's just grown men playing make believe !

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Ohhh the stupidity involved with this sack Des and sack DCE campaign is astounding. I would love us to replace DCE but just which good half is replacing him. Let's sack Hasler but which great coach is coming? When you pose these questions to the sack them mob... they either dont care... supposedly anyone is better than either/both of them or they throw up some spurious names that are no chance of being at Manly. Lets smash the joint rip it up and start again... with a hope and it is just a hope that the new coach/half will lead us to better things. People are forgetting the stats I put together that injuries killed our season. Here is the list of players injured/missing/suspended for a decent number of games from our squad of 30:-

Turbo

Lawton

Paseka

Parker

Walker

Keppie

Davey

Garrick (played injured for 8 games)

Saab

Burbo

Tu'itavake

Schuster

Boyle

Now out of those Turbo, Lawton, Paseka, Keppie, Schuster, Parker and Boyle all have been for significant periods and all would be in our best 17 with maybe the exception of Boyle. That is around 40% of our best 17. At best it created a huge dent in our depth not to mention you could probably argue that Turbo and Lawton's losses were critical given Turbo is our best player by far and Lawton an integral cog who can play a number of positions off the bench and these were really really early in the season injuries.

But yes lets sack and have no plan to get in people with a realistic shot at being much better than what we have. Absolute moronic logic of the highest order!

The easiest example in Newcastle, “we will be fine without Mitchell Pearce, we will use his money on 2 average halves and be a better side”, how did that go ?

Have a look at the Storm when they lost Papenhuysen as well, it wasn’t that dissimilar to our drop without being as spectacular. They were everyones red hot tip to be the only team to challenge Penrith, from round 16 to the end of the season, they won only 4 games, and lost to that woeful team based at Brookvale

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Steady on @Brisbane Tragic .
It's just grown men playing make believe !

and women - seriously as someone once said - your dreaming! lol

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

The easiest example in Newcastle, “we will be fine without Mitchell Pearce, we will use his money on 2 average halves and be a better side”, how did that go ?

Have a look at the Storm when they lost Papenhuysen as well, it wasn’t that dissimilar to our drop without being as spectacular. They were everyones red hot tip to be the only team to challenge Penrith, from round 16 to the end of the season, they won only 4 games, and lost to that woeful team based at Brookvale

oh it is just the craziest logic. I have been VERY critical of DCE and yes I certainly believe we should have let him go to the Dolphins and had a succession plan but given he isn't and we dont and there are no better halves out there available then we need to work with what we have. Now if Flannagan could be signed you might go ok... that is maybe a fair swap for Hasler but no way an experienced coach would touch this club with a ten foot pole. We will only get a newby and then be on a rebuild with a 5 year plan... and if that plan doesn't work in a year or two or three etc we are back to another rebuild... arghhhhh

 

[bob dylan]

Another deadbeat St George loser. For god sake when will we learn, Ex St George players from that era were garbage players that couldn't get the job done and are even worse as coaches. Barrett, McGregor, Brown need I go on. If Manly sign Ryles as a coach dead set I won't be following NRL until he is gone.

just as they where Origin players, perennial losers.

 

[madmax]

Ohhh the stupidity involved with this sack Des and sack DCE campaign is astounding. I would love us to replace DCE but just which good half is replacing him. Let's sack Hasler but which great coach is coming? When you pose these questions to the sack them mob... they either dont care... supposedly anyone is better than either/both of them or they throw up some spurious names that are no chance of being at Manly. Lets smash the joint rip it up and start again... with a hope and it is just a hope that the new coach/half will lead us to better things. People are forgetting the stats I put together that injuries killed our season. Here is the list of players injured/missing/suspended for a decent number of games from our squad of 30:-

Turbo

Lawton

Paseka

Parker

Walker

Keppie

Davey

Garrick (played injured for 8 games)

Saab

Burbo

Tu'itavake

Schuster

Boyle

Now out of those Turbo, Lawton, Paseka, Keppie, Schuster, Parker and Boyle all have been for significant periods and all would be in our best 17 with maybe the exception of Boyle. That is around 40% of our best 17. At best it created a huge dent in our depth not to mention you could probably argue that Turbo and Lawton's losses were critical given Turbo is our best player by far and Lawton an integral cog who can play a number of positions off the bench and these were really really early in the season injuries.

But yes lets sack and have no plan to get in people with a realistic shot at being much better than what we have. Absolute moronic logic of the highest order!

You left out Aloiai…..

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

Exactly my point. Des is the best we can possibly get in todays market. Why would they sack him to put an unknown in..... just stupid.

Yeah, because it's not like the club's owners and administrators are known for making stupid decisions…

The idea of a market for NRL coaches is an interesting one. For a long time it seemed like a closed shop, with the same old blokes swapping one club for another. There has definitely been a swing towards "bright young things" over the last few years, but for every Todd Payten or Craig Fitzgibbon there's… Trent Barrett. Adam O'Brien, Justin Holbrook and Anthony Seibold have also fallen way short of expectations. So it's a risk.

But I also wonder what the market for Des Hasler's services would be these days. While he's out there waving around questionnaires to prove how much the players love him, would there be any other NRL club willing to take him on? Would there be any club right now thinking, "Gee, I wish we could get Des Hasler?"

And while Des apparently thinks he needs an extra guaranteed year for "stability", does he really, in his heart of hearts, think he did anything this year to deserve one? Does he take any responsibility for the **** show that was this season?

 

[master blaster]

This has to be sorted out real quick. Its not only the club and players that are suffering over this, its us fans, which it seems neither Penn or Mestrov seem to give 2 hoots about. We are a laughing stock, the media love feeding on us, its like Christmas has come early for them, its a disgrace but it doesnt seem to worry the powerbrokers at Manly. Its time for Penn to take the offers out there before its too late or before the buyers out there start to think, do we really want to buy this rabble and pre season is just over a month away. They need to remember if you dont have fans, then you wont have a club or a team. Wake up Penn and Mestrov and look at the bigger picture

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

You left out Aloiai…..

yes sorry - I had him in an earlier post - another high profile absence! Thank you

 

[Tragic Eagle]

For once I'm in the Penn corner on this solitary issue. Nothing silly about giving Des an ultimatum. The old there's nobody better is just a hand brake to improvement and a line from an enduring unhappy marriage. I won't rehash the events of this season but IMO any other coach would have been shown the door. The excuses are endless but we look like a team that that is out of touch with the modern game. The succession plan makes sense it is clear we need a reboot and a fresh approach and for Des to focus on coaching and withdraw from club politics until his coaching days are over. The succession plan makes perfect sense and for once is not simply a short term band aid approach. Now that the Foran has gone to the Titans Des can focus on improving Schuster and bringing this squad back together and hopefully start adopting a collective brains trust approach to the role.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Yeah, because it's not like the club's owners and administrators are known for making stupid decisions…

The idea of a market for NRL coaches is an interesting one. For a long time it seemed like a closed shop, with the same old blokes swapping one club for another. There has definitely been a swing towards "bright young things" over the last few years, but for every Todd Payten or Craig Fitzgibbon there's… Trent Barrett. Adam O'Brien, Justin Holbrook and Anthony Seibold have also fallen way short of expectations. So it's a risk.

But I also wonder what the market for Des Hasler's services would be these days. While he's out there waving around questionnaires to prove how much the players love him, would there be any other NRL club willing to take him on? Would there be any club right now thinking, "Gee, I wish we could get Des Hasler?"

And while Des apparently thinks he needs an extra guaranteed year for "stability", does he really, in his heart of hearts, think he did anything this year to deserve one? Does he take any responsibility for the **** show that was this season?

Oh Des has a hand in this - absolutely but he didn't have a hand in all the injuries nor I am guessing the fact we haven't had a CEO most of the year or owner who is invested in the club or I gather nothing to do with the Gay Pride Boycott 10 shambles. And given the key injuries in that list above and adding Aloiai - that is a fair chunk of our decent cattle missing for significant time this year. That is extremely hard to overcome BUT we were on track until the jersey shambles and the wheels fell off and again not sure you can blame Des. I was not a fan of him coming back - to me he knifed us and I have never forgotten that and will never forget that. But he is a very good coach. He is abrasive and not great at man management with the Club and owners but I guess the players generally love him. Now when we have had a bit of luck with injuries Hasler has taken us deep into the semis and with some luck we could have been in a GF the year of the Jake sinbinning. Anyway - I would guess right now there is not much market for Des but 6 months ago there would have been a significant market.. all the jobs are pretty much filled now.

 

[Damien2812]

It doesn't matter what coach comes in since the same roster will be at that coach's disposal. The coach can only take this team so far when you have very poor recruitment and your marquee fullback always injuried.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

It doesn't matter what coach comes in the same roster will be at that coach's disposal. The coach can only take this team so far when you have very poor recruitment and your marquee fullback always injuried.

pretty fair points... although I guess Des has had a decent say in that recruitment... ie Harper from the Dogs, maybe Lawton as well. He obviously isn't on board with the Foran/Schuster situation

 

[Woodsie]

It's been reported this afternoon that turbo is very much team Des. I think if they sack des for a rookie. Tommy will leave at some point

Wow ... suddenly believing journo's ... fairies next ...

 

[Ryan]

The easiest example in Newcastle, “we will be fine without Mitchell Pearce, we will use his money on 2 average halves and be a better side”, how did that go ?

Have a look at the Storm when they lost Papenhuysen as well, it wasn’t that dissimilar to our drop without being as spectacular. They were everyones red hot tip to be the only team to challenge Penrith, from round 16 to the end of the season, they won only 4 games, and lost to that woeful team based at Brookvale

Interesting that you used the Knights, and not the Sharks, Bunnies, Raiders or Cowboys who let their 1st string halves leave (for various reasons) yet are still in the comp and playing finals footy week 2.

To the others, there are so many coaches available , it's ridiculous. Jesus Bellamy will be off contract then, and throw enough money at him, anything is possible. Money talks. Over to you Penn. I've just sorted out your succession - open the wallet.