Trump

[Brookie1973]

This one?



That does not answer my question and instead, in what seems to be a pattern, talks about "both sides".

I tell you what. Post the same amount of information re democrats talking about the exact situation similar to the above and I am happy to read through it.

You specifically asked what do I think of it all, and is there a coverup. How does my post #644 not answer that? And I’m sorry if it disappoints you that I believe there is a coverup on both sides, but that’s what I think. Otherwise, why did Biden not release the “client list” when he was in office?

If there is a pattern to our exchanges, it seems to be that you want me to say Trump is bad and the left are without fault.

 

[manlyfan76]

No wonder she was given the job to cover it up.

 

[Brookie1973]

No wonder she was given the job to cover it up.

Did she work for Biden?

 

[Eagle 1]

You specifically asked what do I think of it all, and is there a coverup. How does my post #644 not answer that? And I’m sorry if it disappoints you that I believe there is a coverup on both sides, but that’s what I think. Otherwise, why did Biden not release the “client list” when he was in office?

If there is a pattern to our exchanges, it seems to be that you want me to say Trump is bad and the left are without fault.

Exactly, it was Biden's baby to begin with. Epstein was snuffed out in prison, and the cover up started well before Epstein's demise.

 

[lsz]

You specifically asked what do I think of it all, and is there a coverup. How does my post #644 not answer that? And I’m sorry if it disappoints you that I believe there is a coverup on both sides, but that’s what I think. Otherwise, why did Biden not release the “client list” when he was in office?

If there is a pattern to our exchanges, it seems to be that you want me to say Trump is bad and the left are without fault.

I actually asked if you thought they exploited the maga base or there was a cover up.

So you are now saying that there is a cover up from both sides.

For what it is worth I believe that Biden did not release it was there was not anything substantive in it.

 

[lsz]

You specifically asked what do I think of it all, and is there a coverup. How does my post #644 not answer that? And I’m sorry if it disappoints you that I believe there is a coverup on both sides, but that’s what I think. Otherwise, why did Biden not release the “client list” when he was in office?

If there is a pattern to our exchanges, it seems to be that you want me to say Trump is bad and the left are without fault.

Sorry forgot one more thing. Again correct me if I am wrong but i do not recall you placing the same critical view that I have placed on some of the biden actions (like the border policy, the way they handled his health)

 

[h27272727]

You make some interesting points, as usual. On this bit …

“Utopian” – many mean it as pie in the sky, can never happen in reality. Never is a long time! Homo sapiens first appeared as a distinct species 300,000 years ago and until about 10,000 years ago lived in small, nomadic groups with low population density who typically valued cooperation, sharing, egalitarianism, and social cohesion (or so current thinking says).

10,000 years ago the first agricultural revolution led to a significant shift in human societies - larger, settled agricultural communities. More hierarchical social structures began to evolve. Big business began … what, within the last couple hundred years…? less?

So human social evolution – only in the last 3% of our existence as a species – has undergone radical changes. And the rate of change seems to be accelerating ever faster, certainly since the Industrial Revolution.

Therefore it’s quite possible what looks ‘utopian’ can change very quickly, like nearly everything else.

Second point - you suggest ‘socialism’ can never last long due to "human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances." Not sure precisely what you mean by this. But from what (little) I know of the Russian revolution – which was the first conscious attempt to overthrow capitalism within a country – no sooner had it occurred than the forces of capitalism rallied to attack and bring it down. Not only the ousted capitalist class, but the other capitalist countries – UK, France Japan, the US and others sent troops and supplies to support the various ‘White Army’ forces. Those other countries also cut off trade and imposed embargoes on Russia.

In every other case where capitalism has come under threat from a communist uprising the same thing has happened. For obvious reasons capitalists of the world view communism anywhere as a potential existential threat to their interests and do whatever they can to crush it.

I realise some think they have won this battle! But stepping back to look at history from a wider perspective – hasn’t all this only just begun to play out? We are at a stage of human social and economic development that has never existed before, and the contradictions of capitalism have certainly not been resolved.

As for Donald, his ascension while spectacular is not unique. Capitalism is creaking and groaning in many places around the world, and the US is not the only place where the extreme right is currently gaining in influence.

Hey, realised i missed getting back to you on this a few weeks back so thought i'd pop back in temporarily. Haven't kept up too much since then. Just glancing at the previous pages it appears I may have been better off away from it. Trump fans seem to be rehashing the current MAGA talking points - with many stepping in line regarding the crapshoot Epstein saga. I wonder if a a few months ago they took Trump's bait that the evidence would be released once he regained power? I mainly get disappointed that a fair chunk of Trump fans here continue to brush past (often factual) counterpoints raised by other users. Many of the same points keep popping up.

Anyways, you've raised an eye-opening point re: "utopian". Historically, Socialism struggled to keep its people fed. It's success was dependant on weather/harvests/avoiding crisis and war. There was a long term vision that could only be built with an acceptance of lean years and a willingness for manual-labour to develop. With modern technology, utopian concepts such as socialism begin to gain a mechanism to function more sustainably (don't think we're quite there yet). The rise of automation/technology is what makes it bizarre that people get hooked on Trump's ancient vision of 'returning workers to factories' in 2025.

On point two, i.e. elaborating on why I wrote ‘socialism’ can never last long due to "human greed and vulnerability to external disturbances.":

• I'd cross out the word "never" after taking into account your first point
• As for external disturbances - in my original post I was more referring to the vulnerability to drought, unforeseen crises and the like. I hadn't considered capitalist opposition but at least in Russia's context this certainly had a major influence. One additional aspect also being the boycotts / constraints on global trade. By the time Stalin got in power it likely fueled much of his paranoia (both internal and external capitalist threats). Russia showed that when isolated, Socialism struggles to sustain itself.
• That said, my perspective on this may be quite outdated as I haven't studied more modern examples.
• The vague reference to human greed refers to how periods of misfortune (famine, drought, disease, war, trade-freezes etc...) led itself to vast ideological changes / shifting visions. My theory (which I have yet to try prove or disprove) is that even if there's a potential for long-term prosperity, a large group of people won't accept the idea of sharing adversity during the inevitable lean years. Hence, resistance and opposition is likely always going to be a prominent feature. Seeing as Socialism is fairly new in the scheme of things it isn't really bounded to a strict rulebook / set of constraints to keep leaders in check.

I think with baby steps it is feasible, but otherwise it will only take some sustained pressure for things to come undone. However, this alone is not necessarily a trademark of Socialism or left/right. IMO it is more a result of lacking constraints. From misfortune and adversity comes paranoia and resistance, then purging and ultimately oppression.

Funnily enough the US has seen much of this slowly (??) occur over the past few months. They've launched a war on the media (many of which is right-owned), middle-class, law-enforcement, education and global trade. Simultaneously they've pushed narratives on immigrants ('aliens') and political opposition ('radical liberals'). Paranoid over internal disagreements in the party - threatening to get rid of those who disagree. List goes on.

 

[Brookie1973]

I actually asked if you thought they exploited the maga base or there was a cover up.

So you are now saying that there is a cover up from both sides.

For what it is worth I believe that Biden did not release it was there was not anything substantive in it.

I said there was a coverup from both sides in my post #644, which is why I referred you to that post. Not sure I agree with you that there is nothing substantive in it, but I don’t believe we will ever get the truth.

 

[Brookie1973]

Sorry forgot one more thing. Again correct me if I am wrong but i do not recall you placing the same critical view that I have placed on some of the biden actions (like the border policy, the way they handled his health)

I try to take a critical view of all things. I have said many times that Trump is a clownish buffoon, but I try to separate personalities from policies as much as possible. If there are particular Trump policies that you disagree with, happy to provide my thoughts.

 

[Eagledare2dream]

Isz vs Brookie this post should b name, hammer & thongs

 

[Eagledare2dream]

Just saying ;-))

 

[manlyfan76]

So according to trump the Dems created the Epstein files, didn't use them. trump got elected, didn't use them, Trump ran again, didn't use them, he's elected, didn't use them and hope that he release them without ever looking at them.

And people believe that.

 

[lsz]

I try to take a critical view of all things. I have said many times that Trump is a clownish buffoon, but I try to separate personalities from policies as much as possible. If there are particular Trump policies that you disagree with, happy to provide my thoughts.

Okay, let’s try another tack.

What do you think the media reaction would have been if Biden did something like this? (And please look past who posted it or the comments—yes, I know it’s easy to say it’s biased, but it’s the best side-by-side I could find.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1945633235423096986

Just to be clear, I’m not asking for a Fox clip in response or a “what about Biden” reply—I’ve covered that plenty already. (For example, take this beat-up from Hannity:

. He rightly points out how weird the nurse story was… kinda like talking about a dead golfer’s appendage?)

Can you comment on this one? Do you think we need a discussion on Trumps mental capability?

 

[Uber Eagle 72]

Okay, let’s try another tack.

What do you think the media reaction would have been if Biden did something like this? (And please look past who posted it or the comments—yes, I know it’s easy to say it’s biased, but it’s the best side-by-side I could find.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1945633235423096986

Just to be clear, I’m not asking for a Fox clip in response or a “what about Biden” reply—I’ve covered that plenty already. (For example, take this beat-up from Hannity:

. He rightly points out how weird the nurse story was… kinda like talking about a dead golfer’s appendage?)

Can you comment on this one? Do you think we need a discussion on Trumps mental capability?

Not meaning to jump in on any one on one debate here but there is no comparison between Biden and Trump when it comes to cognitive fortitude. Biden was a living example of the old weekend at Bernies. Having such an incapable President certainly opened the door for Trump.. Trumps issue is not his mind but his ego!!!

 

[lsz]

Not meaning to jump in on any one on one debate here but there is no comparison between Biden and Trump when it comes to cognitive fortitude. Biden was a living example of the old weekend at Bernies. Having such an incapable President certainly opened the door for Trump.. Trumps issue is not his mind but his ego!!!

Honestly I am not sure. Lets just take this from yesterday where Trump told a story about his Uncle and the Unabomber

Please tell me how the press would have covered this if Biden had created a completely made up story like this? Are you saying it is his ego that makes him do this stuff?

Did Trump’s uncle teach the Unabomber? No. Here’s what really happened

Trump falsely claims Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was taught by his uncle, MIT professor John Trump

www.independent.co.uk

After invoking his late paternal uncle, whom he falsely described as MIT’s “longest-serving professor,” Trump continued his implausible anecdote.

“Kaczynski was one of his students,” he continued. “Do you know who Kaczynski was? There’s very little difference between a madman and a genius.”

From later on in the article

Before being recognized as the Unabomber, Kaczynski earned an undergraduate degree from Harvard in 1962, having entered at the age of 16, and Master's and Doctoral degrees in mathematics from the University of Michigan by 1967.

Despite Trump’s statements, Kaczynski never attended MIT. There is no record of him ever visiting or lecturing at the university either.

Meanwhile, Prof. Trump, a cancer research pioneer who received the National Medal of Science, taught at MIT for approximately four decades before his death in 1985 at the age of 78.

Unlike Kaczynski, John Trump was not a mathematician; he was a professor of electrical engineering and physics.

Even if the renowned physicist did cross paths with the infamous serial killer, he could not have known that Kaczynski was linked to the Unabomber attacks.

The alleged conversation would have taken place more than a decade before the FBI identified Kaczynski as the Unabomber in April 1996 after his brother, David Kaczynski, turned him in after reading his manifesto, Industrial Society and Its Future.

The manifesto makes no mention of Prof. Trump, MIT, or any figures associated with that institution.

His autobiography and prison interviews also contain detailed recollections of his education and professors, with no mention of Trump’s uncle or his time at MIT.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Just glancing at the previous pages it appears I may have been better off away from it.

Yep I don’t really follow those conversations, aside from usually looking at lsz's posts

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I mainly get disappointed that a fair chunk of Trump fans here continue to brush past (often factual) counterpoints raised by other users

Me too, hence I stopped trying

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

The vague reference to human greed refe

Interesting book Human Kind by Rutger Bregman, worth a look if you have time (I haven’t finished it yet). Premise is homo sapiens are not genetically or naturally inclined to greed, mistrust and selfishness, rather to helping each other. He quotes numerous studies that support this view. Meanwhile I totally agree that those who control wealth/power won’t just be voluntarily giving it up to share with everyone.

Trump’s MAGA is a classic ‘greed’ policy. So far he’s persuaded much of the working class that it is in their interests. I think they’ll work out eventually that it’s not the case, but as to when... !?

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Funnily enough the US has seen much of this slowly (??) occur over the past few months.

Yes I think the shift has been quite dramatic. And it's all aimed at solidifying centralised power and stripping away the rights of individuals, quite ironic when you consider his electoral base doesn't trust government and the power elite.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

That’s an odd thing about our local supporters of Trump. I presume they see his policies as helpful to Australia. Isn't it plain that Trump is bullying us? Along with the rest of the world? Wonder if they think Albo should be joining the queue begging and pleading for an audience at the court of Emperor Trump? “Please Sir, we’re your friends, we’ll follow you anywhere, we promise” ?? Personally I’m pleased he doesn’t seem to be doing that, for now at least.